Dianne Haulcy is president and CEO at The Family Partnership and host of Early Risers, a podcast from Little Moments Count and Minnesota Public Radio. She joins the show to share what led her to pursue childhood education, how families can talk to kids about race and racism, and how the two podcasts have similar origin stories.
Dianne Haulcy is president and CEO at The Family Partnership and host of Early Risers, a podcast from Little Moments Count and Minnesota Public Radio. She joins the show to share what led her to pursue childhood education, how families can talk to kids about race and racism, and how the two podcasts have similar origin stories.
Hosts: Kari Haley, MD, and Steven Jackson, MD
Guest: Dianne Haulcy
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
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Kari Haley:
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson:
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley:
Together we're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson:
Inviting voices for change without the cue cards.
Kari Haley:
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson:
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson
Both, together:
And this is Off the Charts.
Steven Jackson:
Today, as I often say, you are in for a treat. And we have the distinct honor and pleasure to be joined by Dianne Haulcy, president and CEO of The Family Partnership, as well as the host of the Early Risers podcast. Thank you for joining us today.
Dianne Haulcy:
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Steven Jackson:
I think we're going to be talking a lot about the kids. I love the kids.
Kari Haley:
The young'uns.
Steven Jackson:
Yes, the young'uns.
Dianne Haulcy:
The babies.
Steven Jackson:
As the late, great Whitney Houston said, "I believe the children are our future." And so I really appreciate, number one, your commitment to early childhood development and education. And today we're going to be talking a little bit more about that and even more specifically about the cultural identity and concepts of race and early childhood development. So tell us a little about maybe about you first before we dive in. Who is Dianne Haulcy?
Dianne Haulcy:
So as you mentioned, I am president and CEO of The Family Partnership, which is a nonprofit in Minneapolis. And we focus on services that help to remove barriers for families. And so we have two sites and we do early childhood behavioral health and some other community-based programming. But I have been in the field of early childhood/human services for about 30 years. I'm born and raised in Minnesota and I've raised my family here too. Yep.
Steven Jackson:
Where did your passion come from? I mean, because obviously children are special, children have specific needs and the things around our world affect adults differently than they affect children. So it seems to be a particular focus that has to be placed on children when you're in the field of childhood development and education. So where's your passion? Where does it stem from?
Dianne Haulcy:
Yeah, that's a good question. And I've told this story many times, so if you hear it, forgive me. So I've always wanted to work in the community. So that was always from day one a passion of mine. But very, very early on in my career, in fact, I was still in graduate school and I had a part-time job at a community center in Minneapolis. And I distinctly remember overhearing conversations. I worked with young people, and overhearing conversations of young teenage girls 13 and 14 talking about at which age they were going to have their baby. It wasn't going to be that year and next year. And then young men talking about which year they were going to go to prison, was it going to be this year or next year, because that's what they had seen in their community, and that was the only options that they had seen.
And it really stuck with me and it occurred to me, and that drove me towards early childhood because I realized that a lot had happened to these young people by the time that they were making statements like that. And that I wanted to work in the area where, right at the beginning, so that by the time they got that age that they had more options and the same thing we want for our children, that they could do whatever they wanted to do in life.
Kari Haley:
Yeah, I mean, think we've talked, I've been involved in some conversations about the pipeline projects and people wanting to expose youth to different careers and different options. And then a lot of the focus is on high school students or early college students. But people are talking about how that's wrong, that is too late a lot of the time to start talking to youth about that. So how do you approach talking to a middle schooler or an elementary student or a pre-K student about different options in their life other than what they might experience day to day?
Dianne Haulcy:
Well, one of the things I love about working in the field of early childhood is that there's so much hope. In young children, we like to say in early childhood that 80% of brains are developed by the time you're 5 years old. And so there's a lot happening in those first few years. There's a lot happening in our brains. There's a lot of development happening. So that is just an excellent time to really be able to work with children. And so if they're already showing delays, for instance, there's a lot you can do to really catch children up so that they're ready for kindergarten. And so that's one of the things I love about early childhood is there's just so much that you can really tangibly do to really catch children up and to get them ready so that they can learn and be ready to do whatever they want to do.
Steven Jackson:
We obviously talk about the health equity emergency. That's like the subtitle of this podcast. And the essence of what you're saying and essence of what you guys are doing is equity. You're positioning our kids who might be disadvantaged or they might come from a background that puts them in the red, so to speak, when it comes to what they have access to. And you're helping to bridge the gap so that the playing field is more level and they have more of a chance to be successful. What are some of the challenges that you face? And I would imagine there would be many because...
Dianne Haulcy:
Well, especially now still recovering from the pandemic and all that that has done to development of children of all ages. But I would say that one of the biggest challenges, for instance, right now in the classroom is that there is an increased number of children that are showing up with delayed social skills, or not as many social skills as they were before the pandemic. And so there's a lot of work now that's being done around how do we develop executive functioning skills? That's what they call it. But basically these are the skills that help you to calm yourself and regulate your emotions, follow directions, those kind of skills like that, that are really difficult right now when you're not in community with other people to develop. And so that's across the board. We're seeing a lot more of that right now in the classroom.
Kari Haley:
That's really interesting. And maybe not just even involving COVID, but in your years of experience with that, have you seen trends or changes from what the pre-K youth were 20 years ago compared to where we are now, excluding even having had the pandemic?
Dianne Haulcy:
Yeah, that's a really good point. Even before the pandemic, I would say that there was an uptick in the issues around executive functioning and also language. And so that's another big one and another area where a lot of equity issues emerge. And so if you're in a family that talks a lot or you get a lot of language, that's beneficial because that early language development is going to help you with literacy. And as we all know, literacy basically helps you learn everything else. So literacy is really important.
With the introduction of the smartphone, which that was way before the pandemic, we're already seeing a bit of a decrease in the amount of words that all children are being exposed to now.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah, I was going to say something.
Dianne Haulcy:
Now, there's already an equity issue between a low income and middle or higher income children and how many words that they receive. But that seems to be closing on the lower end, not like it's getting better, but it's getting worse for upper income families because of when the smartphone emerged, there's been less interaction with babies. And so they're not getting as much of the language as well.
Steven Jackson:
You're bringing up a lot of interesting points, and in my mind while you're talking, I'm thinking, well, what direction should we go? Because we can go in a lot of directions. I want to send a shout-out quickly to (Dr.) Jason Maxwell. He's one of the directors in pediatrics here at HealthPartners. We had him on really early in our podcast, we're just a fledgling podcast. But he linked being literate by a certain age, or if you're not literate by a certain age, it's a predictor of who's going to be incarcerated.
Dianne Haulcy:
I think it's third grade.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. And that really stuck with me when he said that. Something else that you said, you talked about community and how important it is for people to learn within that community, having community. As we think about the George Floyd Festival that's coming up this weekend, and one of the keywords was ubuntu, I think I said ubuntu, which means "I am, because we are," and I'm thinking about that while you're talking, because it's going to be that community and us rallying around one another to make sure that if one falls, we all fall. So let's rally around and pick each other up. That's going to be important.
So when I think about childhood development, I have my own kids, and I think about some of the challenges that we had/have. And I don't want to make this about me, but we have four teenagers right now who from 19 down to 15, and this generation, they were born with a Facebook account and a phone when they were born. Can you speak specifically about that challenge and the current generation? Because I mean, again, the study show with the smartphone, some of the social skills and some of these other things are going in the wrong direction, but now it's the "way of the world." This is what happens. Everybody gets a phone by 4 years old and a tablet. And tell me about those challenges in that particular space.
Dianne Haulcy:
So I'm certainly not an expert in this area, but I can talk about what I'm seeing in the field of early childhood. And I think so that we're working with children oftentimes five, six years and younger. So they have no concept of a world without a touchscreen. And it's everybody having a phone in their hand. This is their world. They don't know anything else. And so part of what's happening in the field is that a lot of our teachers, if we have some long-term teachers or people that have been in the field educating, there's a real gap in between the technological knowledge that they might have and the knowledge that these very young children have and what they're expecting. So that is one of the issues that we're dealing with. The other issue is, there is a lot of talk about no screen time, especially before the pandemic. But then when the pandemic happened, then all of a sudden everybody needed a screen to do anything.
Kari Haley:
That was survival for a lot of parents.
Dianne Haulcy:
It was survival. You have to have a screen to be able to go to school now and to be able to do this. And even a lot of early childhood programs were trying desperately, especially during those early months, to figure out how they could do things remotely. So that these young children also are now very familiar with communicating to people on the screen. So this is their life, they don't know anything else.
And so I think the outlook around that has shifted, maybe out of necessity, maybe just because people have realized this is the world we live in, but there's a lot of conversations now around tools. How can we develop early childhood tools, assessments that do use the screen because this is what-
Steven Jackson:
This is the platform, the landscape.
Dianne Haulcy:
This is the landscape that we are living in. And so I don't know where that all is going to end up, but it is the reality that our young children and their worlds revolve around all this technology now, and they don't know a world without it.
Steven Jackson:
And they don't know how to do without it.
Dianne Haulcy:
They don't know how to do without That is true. They don't. Yeah, they don't.
Kari Haley:
Wow. I just think about, I have a 6-year-old, so he really honestly doesn't still understand when you just simply call someone why he can't see them as well. Because he's used to FaceTime rather than just even just a phone call, if we call my parents, he's like, "Why can't I see grandma? I can hear her, but why can't-"
Dianne Haulcy:
Where's her face?
Kari Haley:
Yeah, "Where's her face? I don't understand it." So just thinking about how we probably do need to adapt in how we deliver education and do these testings and everything, and do we need to change our expectations or what do you think will be coming in the next five years, especially as these pandemic babies get older and are going into school, entering the school years?
Dianne Haulcy:
Yeah. I think we are at that place where we just have to adapt. And there are a lot of people that are working on things like that. How do we use now technology? And I think, well, I hope, this is my hope now that our school systems will really begin to not just adapt, but to maybe even regenerate into a way that is more beneficial to a broader number of people and be able to do it in a way that people learn better. Everybody learns differently. And I have children, too, and my children were teenagers when the pandemic started as well. And so they have a totally different viewpoint on school attendance than I do, because they were just gone and they basically went to school from their bed for two years. So they're like, "I can still get good grades and not go into the building." I mean, it's just a totally different view of how I grew up. You just went to school. Well, these children now, that is not their experience. That has not been their reality. And so they're going to expect something different.
Steven Jackson:
And like you said, we have to be creative. Saying no screen time, obviously that would not work. So how can we utilize what we have and be current with what's happening with the technological advancements that are occurring, but still be effective because the kids still need to be reached? We talked earlier a little bit about equity, and we talked about cultural identity. How do you talk to a young person about cultural identity and even race and racism for that matter?
Dianne Haulcy:
Well, first of all, it's good to recognize that children are... As I mentioned before, there's so much learning and is happening in those first few years, and which includes their cultural identity. Every child is developing a cultural identity. And so that's just happening. I think the important thing is to be aware of it that so that you can help to mold that cultural identity into a positive one.
And so for white children, what's important is to be able to help them develop a cultural identity, to be proud of who they are, but not in a way that downplays somebody else's identity so that they're proud of who they are, but it doesn't mean that they're any better or any worse than anyone else. And for children of color, especially in a place like Minnesota, it's really important to develop cultural identities so where people can be not just proud of who they are, but to also be prepared for when people might say things against them, that they don't internalize it. So they don't begin to believe some of those negative stereotypes that are out there. So that they have the language and the wherewithal to combat whatever negativity they may encounter.
Kari Haley:
I think we try to talk about uncomfortable things here on our podcast and as well as yours. I think that one of the things that I felt is sometimes a challenge is that a lot of people don't feel comfortable talking about race themselves, even adult to adult, let alone to a 4-year-old or a 3-year-old. So what words of wisdom do you have for trying to engage in the conversation, especially for people who are very uncomfortable talking about it, even for themselves as an adult?
Dianne Haulcy:
We are not taught how to talk about race. And so, a lot of times people are uncomfortable about it. But here's the good news. These are conversations that you can prepare yourself for. You don't have to be caught off guard. There's so much literature out there, videos, things that you can do. And so what I really recommend is there is a person that I interviewed on my podcast, Dr. Rosemarie Allen, and she talks about having a treasure trove of responses. So you can develop these responses, you can develop how you are going to talk about it before you have the conversation so that you're ready and you don't have to get caught off guard.
The other thing I would say, and this is important about talking to children, we're not taught how to do this. And so a lot of times, especially when you first do it, you might be uncomfortable, but the most important thing is to have the conversation and to not shut the conversation down. Because when you shut the conversation down, the child or children get the message, "I can't talk about this." And so then they'll stop asking. Now, it doesn't mean that they stop having questions or they stop developing, but they will stop talking about it.
And so as long as you keep talking about it's always OK if you, a child asks a question and you say, "I don't really know right now, maybe I'll find out and we'll talk about it again later." You can always just make sure that they know it's OK for you to ask these questions. It's OK for us to talk about that, because at whatever age that conversation is, you're opening up the conversation for a lifetime. So your conversation will change over the years as children develop, but it's open and you can have it. And because you want your child when they get to be 13, 14, 15, to be able to come to you if they have these questions and not just find something out on YouTube, because that's going to be their teacher if they can't talk about it with you, they're going to get information somewhere. It just won't be from you as the parent or caregiver.
Steven Jackson:
And I think as parents and as again, community members, I think it's important for us to enlarge the territory of our kids, so to speak. Going back to what you said earlier, you stated that a lot of the young ladies, they talked about when they're going to conceive, and the young men talked about when they're going to enter the prison system, and it's almost like, you hear the term, "You can't be what you don't see," or, "You can't be what you can't see." And I think we have to continue to expose young people to the possibilities, because it might be that one mentor, or that one class or that one opportunity, that one program that sparks something on the inside of them that wakes up that developing seed, that develops into a fruit of success, whatever that is for them, as opposed to, "Well, this is what I'm going to be, I might as well not try."
That hits me hard because I see, my wife and I, we call it the fallacy of low expectation. Because if a kid gets a C, yeah, you encourage them because it wasn't an F, but it shouldn't be a, "Well, good job, good job. That's a great job." Because then it's like, "OK, I've done my part." And I'm speaking personally, I'm not quoting stats here for our listeners, but I've seen personally how some people of color talk about my kids, it's almost like there's a lower expectation. And so thankfully, they have two involved parents that have raised the bar and continue to raise the bar for them so they can achieve and they can reach. But it's almost like a, "Oh, good job with your C or your C-, you did better this year."
And it's like, no, we have to always present just what the potential is. They always say reach for the stars and let's see where you land. And so I really appreciate just you guys really just putting forth not only the effort, but just the heart behind this that, again, our children are special. And it's a call. It's not just a desire, it's a call to really help young people.
Dianne Haulcy:
It is, yeah.
Steven Jackson:
I appreciate that.
Dianne Haulcy:
Thank you.
Kari Haley:
I'm going to just segue into wanted to hear a little bit more about your podcast. Since we are all fellow podcast hosts, can you tell us a little bit about how your podcast was born and the ideas behind it and where you're at, where you want to go, that sort of thing?
Steven Jackson:
Let me give my notepad real quick.
Kari Haley:
We'll take some notes and maybe steal something. I don't know.
Dianne Haulcy:
Yeah. Well, I think similarly to how your podcast started, I was deeply affected by the murder of George Floyd in a way, not just personally, but also professionally. And so I really did some deep thinking about early childhood field and what our responsibilities lie in that conversation, as well as what are our opportunities? We're working with children when they're very young, so we have tremendous opportunity around this.
And so, through my work, my many years of work, it occurred to me that adults, as we have already discussed, really don't know how to have conversations around race and racism. And so how can we solve something if we can't even talk about it? So I started to think about the fact that, well, we're working with young children, this is something we can actually teach. We can teach children how to have these conversations. And so what I knew people needed was not an intellectual conversation. They need to know the words. What do I exactly say in this particular situation? And so that's how the podcast was born to be able to be a resource for people to say, "OK, this is what I can actually say in this situation to young children."
So we're in the middle of our fourth season, it's going very well. And so, I don't know, I'm not exactly sure where we'll go. This season is all about parents. So we've been talking to several parents around the state of Minnesota about their journeys with talking to their children about race and racism. So we'll see where it goes.
Kari Haley:
Awesome.
Steven Jackson:
That's amazing. Speak to that person or group of people that don't feel like this body of work is important or should be prioritized.
Dianne Haulcy:
Well, what I would say to that is that we have seen repeatedly how racism, it's actually in many situations a life or death situation. And not being able to recognize race or racism, not being able to talk about it, can be fatal to some people. And so this is real. It's not just a nice thing to do. It's imperative that we teach children how to have these conversations. And my dream is that children will grow up, that our young children will grow up and one day be able to have the conversation that solves the issue, that dismantles racism, because then now they can talk about it. So that's my dream.
Steven Jackson:
I like that dream.
Kari Haley:
I love that dream. That's a fabulous dream. Neither you nor Steve and I need to do podcasts anymore.
Dianne Haulcy:
Exactly. Exactly.
Kari Haley:
If that comes true.
Dianne Haulcy:
Yes.
Kari Haley:
Well, I mean, I think this conversation, honestly, I feel like we could go on for a lot longer than what we have right now, but I want to thank you for coming, sharing all of your stories and wisdom here today. I think that both children and adults alike can learn a lot from you, and that I'm really hopeful that you can continue succeeding in all of your endeavors.
Dianne Haulcy:
Thank you.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. And listen, thank you for being a voice for our kids. I mean, they have a special place in my heart. I don't say this as we close, I don't think I was called. I used to tell my wife when I was looking into residency, I told her, "I had enough pediatrics at home, so I don't need to go into peds."
Dianne Haulcy:
That's funny.
Steven Jackson:
But honestly, in all seriousness, thank you for just being a voice for those that need to have a voice and for helping shape our future, which hopefully is a bright one.
Dianne Haulcy:
Thank you.
Steven Jackson:
Thank you so much.
Dianne Haulcy:
Thank you very much.
Steven Jackson:
Off the Charts is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley:
It is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy, with creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson:
Production services provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley:
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.