Shelley Quiala and Paul Scholtz of Cantus Vocal Ensemble explore the powerful intersection of music and memory through the group’s performances. Quiala, Cantus’ executive director, and Scholtz, artistic co-director, share how song, personal stories and community partnerships transform perceptions of dementia. The conversation highlights how the arts can foster healing and connection.
Shelley Quiala and Paul Scholtz of Cantus Vocal Ensemble explore the powerful intersection of music and memory through the group’s performances. Quiala, Cantus’ executive director, and Scholtz, artistic co-director, share how song, personal stories and community partnerships transform perceptions of dementia. The conversation highlights how the arts can foster healing and connection.
Hosts: Kari Haley, MD, and Steven Jackson, MD
Guests: Shelley Quiala and Paul Scholtz
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
Got an idea? Have thoughts to share? We want to hear from you. Email us at offthecharts@healthpartners.com.
Kari Haley:
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson:
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley:
Together we're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson:
Inviting voices for change without the cue cards.
Kari Haley:
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson:
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson.
Both, together:
And this is "Off the Charts."
Steven Jackson:
Welcome to our show. We're very excited to be talking today to Shelley Quiala, who is the executive director of Cantus vocal ensemble, and Paul Scholtz, who's a Cantus singer and communications lead on the artistic council, heavy and exciting. Today we're going to be diving into dementia and song to access memory and the connection between health and the arts.
Welcome, guys. So happy to have you.
Paul Scholtz:
Thank you so much.
Shelley Quiala:
Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah, we're excited about this. We're already all pumped up.
Steven Jackson:
So tell us a little bit about the background maybe of Cantus and you guys' connection to this work and why it's so important to you.
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah. Cantus is a nonprofit organization based here in the Twin Cities, and so we employ eight full-time professional singers, artists. We do about 70 to 80 performances every year, and so that's national touring, it's about 40 shows here in the Twin Cities Metro. We get international every couple of years as well. And so with those 70 to 80 shows we do about six different programs here in the Twin Cities. And our vision as a nonprofit is to give voice to shared human experiences.
And so when we program a show, we're not just trying to say, we're going to do all the songs from the 18th century by German white guys, and they have to be dead. For us, it's more about finding a really strong central theme or hopefully a story with which to structure the music. So some examples in the recent past last year, our touring show, the show that we traveled with was called Brave and it explored issues of masculinity and identity. And so we took the lens from a really personal angle, and so we're exploring toxic masculinity, the experience of manhood in the 21st century. So for us as a tenor bass ensemble, I should have mentioned that, we're all currently male identifying and we're low voices. We shared personal stories about, for me I talked about being a father, others talked about growing up. But then we'd have these really personal vulnerable moments and then we'd pair that with music, and so it gave audiences-
Kari Haley:
Wow.
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah. So kind of more context with which to listen. Another example is a show called "My Journey, Yours," where we shared immigrant stories that we and then shared from stage and then had just some amazing music to pair with that. And then the show that we're kind of here to talk about, which is called "Wanting Memories," which is our show this fall and that we've toured all year, that explores the connection between music and memory.
And so for this show, we shared some personal stories. One singer talked about a recipe that his grandmother taught him for what was a key lime pie. And in detail, he talks about this recipe from stage between songs. And then he tells his dad about it. He made it for his daughters, and he said he tasted it was really good, but it wasn't quite right, what was wrong with it? So he asked his dad, what was that with grandma's key lime pie recipe? And he said, key lime pie? Grapefruit pie. And so that moment of, what? This kind of central memory for him was completely wrong, but the feelings of it, the love his grandmother showed him and shared in that recipe making, that's really what is important, what he held onto.
So yeah, so he shared some personal stories, but also we had the opportunity to partner with this incredible organization Giving Voice Chorus, which I know we'll get into in a little bit.
Steven Jackson:
That's awesome.
Kari Haley:
Tell me a little bit more about who came up with this idea. What is your creative process in making these shows and determining what you're going to be doing in the direction?
Paul Scholtz:
Yes, that's a great question and an enormous question, sort of.
Kari Haley:
Yes.
Paul Scholtz:
We love to talk about this-
Steven Jackson:
She's good at those.
Paul Scholtz:
Cantus is...
Shelley Quiala:
Well done.
Paul Scholtz:
... it's unique for a couple of reasons. It's one of two full-time choirs, eight-person choirs in the United States, but also it's the only one that's artist lead. And so when we come up with shows, it's really a community effort. So the eight of us get into a room and we pitch ideas. We're trying to think of things are relevant, that are meaningful to us, but also meaningful to the communities that we perform in, that we find ourselves in front of. It's just a matter of trying to convince your fellow singers what's compelling. And so often that's the story, what's it about. But also for us, repertoires also can be really compelling. If there's some songs that we love to sing or that audiences are really respond to, maybe that's going to kind of be the central point of this show.
Shelley Quiala:
Sorry, I'm going to ask a question. Is that all right?
Kari Haley:
Oh, yes.
Paul Scholtz:
Oh, gosh. [laughter from all].
Shelley Quiala:
Did someone have someone in their life that had experience to mention Alzheimer's, was that the impetus? I wondered about that. I started with the organization after this concept was already underway, and I joined them around the time the show was being mounted in the Twin Cities. So I wasn't part of that initial process.
Paul Scholtz:
I think the answer to that is yes, I can think of the singer who proposed the show, and he wasn't necessarily so explicitly forthcoming about the reason why it was meaningful, but it really resonated with him and I think with others who have some close experience with Alzheimer's and other dementias. And yeah, it really felt like it hit the sweet spot as being something that we can all relate to memory. We all have our own foibles with memory, even if we're not experiencing abnormal cognitive decline, decline we do regardless. And so how music intersects with that and some of our formative memories, all these songs, it lent itself to this incredible repertoire. We were singing "Over the Rainbow." What's that opening song? "What a Wonderful World."
So yeah, so I think from there it kind of grew some legs as it's finding that sweet spot between an entry point that audiences are going to be able to embrace, but then also we can dig a little deeper, sharing personal stories and confronting some of the uncomfortable pieces with Alzheimer's and other dementias.
Steven Jackson:
What a way to, again, tackle the uncomfortable. I think it's so easy to avoid the uncomfortable, especially when it's dealing with health and medical care and some of the fear and the misconceptions, previous bad experiences. What a way to incorporate something so familiar and so universal as music.
Kari Haley:
Yes.
Steven Jackson:
I find that to be very intriguing.
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah, it does feel like... I mean, I'm so passionate about what I get to do. It's really amazing to get to make music. And I think you're speaking to something which is so true, which is music has a way of overcoming barriers. And certainly we're talking about some barriers, maybe even in a health way, in a brain way, but in our world in a larger context too. I mean, there's so much polarization. But the arts and music have a way of creating entry points even if we disagree. People come to our concerts and there's an openness that they come with because they're going to hear a concert where it's hard to find that. So I love that it's both scientific, but also in a community kind of a way as well.
Shelley Quiala:
Totally. Yeah. So I was on the East Coast when Cantus and I connected officially, I was in another role on the East Coast, and there's a movement growing that started on the East Coast that is about social prescription. And there's actually an organization called Art Pharmacy based in, I want to say it's based in Atlanta, but they're working nationally. And I heard about it at Yale because they did an innovation summit day with folks from Massachusetts. And the Massachusetts Arts Council has championed the entire state to adopt this policy where doctors can prescribe arts interventions as nonclinical interventions because of the physiological benefit that it has. And so I was in the midst of hearing that, and then I met Cantus for this purpose and heard about the show, and I was like, oh, this is the stuff. This is huge. This is important. This is gaining traction.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. And it's interesting that you say that. It reminds me of how this concept has evolved over time because I want to say about eight or nine years ago, there was a music therapy program here, and there still is, but it really grew, and I was fortunate to be a part of some of the pioneering of that particularly for inpatient rehab, which led to more mental health services by way of music therapy. And now it's really flourishing now across the hospital.
But I say that to say I would have conversations with music therapists who are educated in music therapy, but at that point, they still had to justify the therapeutic benefit of it. It was more of a novelty. It was more of an extra. And I'm assuming now that there have been more studies and more evidence that there's some medical benefit to this. So it's good to hear that that has kind of evolved further than it was.
Shelley Quiala:
That it's core. It's not extra, it's core.
Kari Haley:
As you've done the show, right?
Paul Scholtz:
We have, yeah. We've done it maybe I don't, 30 times or something.
Kari Haley:
Nice. What kind of feedback are you getting? What are people saying? Are you having people who have experience either personally with dementia or family members, friends who know someone who's suffering with dementia, who've seen the show, come to the show and have something to say about it?
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah, we definitely have been getting a lot of feedback. I mean, when you do a show like this that is really personal for all of us, I mean, it's so easy to read yourself into the music, into the concept of the show, that we look out in between songs... So there's moments in songs where usually we're standing in an arc and we're looking at each other for musical cues and for dynamic kind of phrasing and intention. But then sometimes we'll make choices to look out at the audience to sing a certain moment. And you can make eye contact with the folks. You can see there's folks who are being moved to tears because of their own context they're bringing. So there's those kinds of moments.
And then also after the shows, folks have come up to us and shared stories of being affected by Alzheimer's and other dementias, usually they're caregivers or their loved ones have experienced those things. And in the show, some folks are sharing personal stories. I share a poem that I found on the Alzheimer's Society website called "I Talked to a Lady" by Tanya Howden. It's from the perspective of a caregiver, and basically she's written a poem about how she kind of meets her mom every day as a caregiver, and it's really beautiful and it unfolds where you don't know that she's the daughter until the very end. And so raising that up as an experience for folks who, like me, don't have as much contact with Alzheimer's and the dementias, but as you're hearing experiencing that poem it really hits folks. And afterward, get a lot of folks that come up to me and thank me for sharing that poem because it is a lived experience for them.
Kari Haley:
I'm just thinking so, for context, I work in the emergency department, so we don't have the opportunity really for music therapy. It's a little bit of a chaotic environment for music. Maybe it would be great to have some background music, but a lot of times it's the dinging. There's so much noise in the background and in our emergency department. But we have so many touch points with families and patients who suffer from dementia or even early onset dementia, traumatic brain injury. So people who have things, and even just people who are there on the worst day of their lives in general. So I am trying to think what are things, are there small pieces that we could bring into a chaotic environment that would help move this even more into the norm? We have it on the inpatient side, maybe the clinic side, it's something you can prescribe. But how do we make it a part of the experience of someone when they come into the health care setting?
Shelley Quiala:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you already have a soundscape, right? That's what you were talking about is there is this dinging and these things and it's being put together somewhat happenstantially.
Kari Haley:
Yes.
Shelley Quiala:
And so I mean, one approach could be like, what if the soundscape was intentional? What parts of it could you control? Are there rooms within the space that you're in that could have an intentional soundscape that could communicate a feeling? Which is exactly how you select music when you're putting a show together.
Paul Scholtz:
You could have a singer in every room.
Shelley Quiala:
There you go.
Steven Jackson:
Singing on demand.
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah, that's a good question. In an emergency department. Yeah.
Kari Haley:
It's how I'm going to get Steve to the emergency department.
Shelley Quiala:
There you go.
Steven Jackson:
There you go, yeah.
Shelley Quiala:
You got another job, Steve.
Steven Jackson:
I quit.
Paul Scholtz:
One of the things that I definitely wanted to make sure to share, and it's a little more actionable as well, is there's this incredible organization, the Twin Cities called Giving Voice Chorus. And we had a chance to partner with them as a part of this concert. We had a couple of partnerships. One was we had a training from Dementia Friends, and someone came in and talked to us about what it's like to experience dementia, what are some of the things that are declining or how should you talk to someone who is experiencing Alzheimer's or other dementias, which was really eye-opening for me because I never had someone so concretely share things like that.
But then also Giving Voice Chorus is this organization that folks experiencing Alzheimer's other dementias can join with a caregiver. And so there's five choruses around the Twin Cities and there are 50 to 75 people. And Cantus featured the Crosstown Chorus that's based on in Edina on one of our concerts. And so they opened the show with a couple of their own songs, and then they joined us for some of our pieces, and we got to go to some rehearsals and it was just incredible. Because I think when I think about cognitive, you think about it in terms of deficit. What are folks losing? And how those folks tried to retrain our conscious brains was thinking about it in terms of asset and what strengths exist and can still be called upon. And one of those is music making. And so you get folks who are in various stages of memory loss and they come in there and you would never know. And we were just placed around randomly in the room, and they're not even necessarily sitting with their caregivers and you have no idea who's experiencing cognitive decline, who isn't.
The singing is really powerful and strong. It's a great choir. And the energy, the vibe is so up and so positive. Something with Dementia Friends that they were talking with us about too is the importance of community, the importance of not getting isolated, which can happen both to folks experiencing the diseases, but also the caregivers. And so this Giving Voice Chorus, it's just like this bright light for folks to do something positive that they do public performances. So yeah, it's just all around amazing-
Shelley Quiala:
And that's national, isn't that national?
Paul Scholtz:
It's national, yeah. I think they have 60-plus choruses around the country.
Shelley Quiala:
Yeah.
Steven Jackson:
What's a story or an account of you guys' experience thus far that really stands out? So when somebody would say what gets you to work, what couple of stories or even a couple of people or family members that really have touched you and remind you of why you do what you do?
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah, I think for me, one that's not maybe so specific, but it's something that I've struggled with in my professional journey is I come from a family of teachers and medical professionals, and I have a sister who works in immigration law. And it was really impressed upon all of us to find a way to help. And I think as I came out of school and was trying to pursue singing, it felt selfish at first. And then what I've come to realize as I've gotten a little older is just the incredible opportunity that I have. And not only to sing and how folks resonate with that, how people need to hear it, they need to experience it, they need to see themselves reflected in the art making. But also at Cantus where we get to decide what the shows are about. And so we get to do a show that is about memory and memory loss and music, or we get to do a show that explores manhood in the 21st century and how we can fight against some of the toxicity we're seeing in the environment.
So I think for me, it's the platform and it just seems like it can be so overwhelming with what's happening in our world. And so to feel like you have the chance to make a positive difference is really, really powerful.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. Make a difference.
Shelley Quiala:
Absolutely.
Steven Jackson:
Absolutely.
Paul Scholtz:
And I think in a specific way, we're reminded about that stuff. I think about, I'm kind of on this brave program that the masculinity program, but-
Kari Haley:
It's top of mind for you.
Paul Scholtz:
It is top of mind. I have two little boys and one little girl at home, three kids, and we partnered with the Minnesota Boy Choir for that, so there's these young singers. And there's a moment in the show that those young people join us for this song that's kind of about anti-bullying. Yeah, it's just this incredible, incredible moment. We were all, the Cantus eight singers were just totally in tears, like singing, just what the song meant in the context of having those young people and getting to share it with their parents, but also our audience. So there's a lot of moments like that, and I think it's really a privilege to get to do that every day.
Shelley Quiala:
So I really think that one of my gifts and what brings me joy is being a part of making connections happen. And so hearing about a show and knowing about a show, like Wanting Memories and thinking, oh, I could connect that with art pharmacy, maybe we could talk at this conference and maybe there's a health podcast somewhere that might want to know about this.
Steven Jackson:
Maybe.
Shelley Quiala:
Really extending the tentacles of the power of the work that Cantus does is where I find my joy. And one of the things that happened is that one of our board members, her life has been touched by Alzheimer's and she was quite moved by the show and listened to it several times and is also very involved in the Alzheimer's Association of Minnesota. And as a result of her connecting the dots and making things happen, Cantus is actually going to sing at their gala that raises a million dollars every year for Alzheimer's research. Those points of connection and just knowing that you're doing your best, you're doing what you were called to do and seeing where that goes, I think that's what keeps me going.
Kari Haley:
That's amazing.
Shelley Quiala:
Yeah.
Kari Haley:
On this podcast, we talk a lot about trust and the health care system, and we are a health equity-type podcast. And I really love this idea of music entering the health care system because I think music really does build trust between people. You mentioned even if you come from different backgrounds, different perspectives, you can maybe have a song that is a core memory or trigger something within yourself that is shared amongst all of them, all the perspectives. And then also just the equity piece where it is a baseline for people. Music and arts has been a part of everybody's lives and whether or not we are fully engaged in it or it's something that we haven't really engaged with since we were in kindergarten, it's still part of people's lives and they have really foundational memories associated with it.
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah. And humans are such creative creatures, we really are. No offense, but sometimes hospitals can feel a little sterile by design in part, right?
Shelley Quiala:
We need it.
Kari Haley:
Yes. Yeah.
Shelley Quiala:
We need it.
Paul Scholtz:
They got to be sterile.
Steven Jackson:
I'm offended.
Paul Scholtz:
I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
But yeah, how can you bring that, have people feel like... Because there's a sense of safety and belonging when you have that kind of a creative outlet, that kind of a baseline thing. We all can resonate. We are more than just a car that needs fixing, we're very complicated.
Shelley Quiala:
Yes. Yes, you are.
Kari Haley:
From that, I feel like I need to just hear your voice on the speakers at all times in the hospital now.
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah. You should sing for us.
Steven Jackson:
I could do a recording.
Paul Scholtz:
What do you got?
Kari Haley:
You can provide a soundtrack for Regions Hospital.
Steven Jackson:
I'm willing. You hear that, HealthPartners?
Kari Haley:
OK, someone's listening.
Steven Jackson:
Call me. Let's talk. I think one of the things that I'm hearing, and it kind of goes without saying, is that music kind of brings us all together. We talk about the times we're living in, there's a lot of divisiveness or divisiveness if you're from English, just joking.
Kari Haley:
I like it.
Steven Jackson:
And just so many conversations out there about how different we are and we should celebrate our differences, but we are also people who need a lot of the same things in a lot of situations. And I think this reminds us of, there's some universal benefit... I'm reminded of, and I won't make a list, but there are just certain songs that spark certain memories. Things that, again, we talked offline before, I haven't thought about that in a long time, but a song will bring it up and it's like, wow.
Even just with the everyday use of what you guys are talking about in med school or even in college, some type of memory that you need for a test, you'll put it to a song to remember it. And here we are talking-
Paul Scholtz:
Exactly.
Steven Jackson:
Or capitals or something, U.S. capitals.
Shelley Quiala:
Yeah. Yep.
Steven Jackson:
And here we are just applying that concept to help people going through dementia. So this is amazing.
Shelley Quiala:
It is. And I think I love the arts and similarly, I come from a lot of educators and social scientists and medical scientists, I find the arts to be the most powerful when they intersect with something else. Because then the idea of access is centered arts and education, arts and health care arts because then it becomes less about arts happens in this special place that you need a passport to get into versus it's all of ours. And that's one of the reasons I think the work Cantus does is so powerful because that is absolutely the way that it's created. It's created with that in mind first. Not we're going to put a show together and put it in this beautiful hall that happens, but that's not the why. And so the connection between health care and the arts, I think the two of them together actually make both of them more accessible to more people.
Steven Jackson:
Absolutely.
Shelley Quiala:
In a really positive way.
Steven Jackson:
Absolutely.
Shelley Quiala:
I love my job.
Steven Jackson:
It sounds like it. It sounds like it.
Kari Haley:
It seems like such a great thing that you're doing.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. My wife, she is an educator at a local school and she runs the art program. And so at home we have the medical and the art together. All of our kids, they either sing something or play something or both because my wife and I both, we've known the importance of music for a long time. Honestly, I think it develops a certain part of your brain too.
Shelley Quiala:
Sure does.
Steven Jackson:
If you play an instrument, sorry, to those that don't play an instrument, I'm not judging you, but I feel like if you learn an instrument or if you sing or have some kind of involvement in the arts, I think it does develop some part that's essential. I don't know. It's very meaningful.
Paul Scholtz:
I think there's a piece about it, too, there where we want to be expressive. Everyone wants to be expressive, but it's scary. And I think, I grew up in small town Iowa and I was a quiet kid who, I don't know, didn't necessarily-
Shelley Quiala:
You were a quiet kid?
Paul Scholtz:
I was, isn't that crazy?
Shelley Quiala:
Oh, I'm surprised.
Steven Jackson:
He said "was."
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah, yeah. I was a quiet kid. But yeah, when you're learning an instrument or singing as you're developing that you're asked to be expressive and the whole act is so expressive. And I think that's a lesson and a practice that I think immediately applies beyond that specific musical moment. Because in all our professional lives we're asked to be expressive. When you're trying to be persuasive, it takes that kind of energy. And that's really where the beauty of existing is, I think, in the expression. So yeah, I mean, take your kids to music stuff, make them learn an instrument, this is good.
Shelley Quiala:
And singing. Sing together.
Steven Jackson:
Make them learn.
Shelley Quiala:
Make them learn. They'll love it. They'll love you for it someday.
Steven Jackson:
Someday.
Shelley Quiala:
I want to just add, is it OK to add one more thing? The thing that's stuck out to me when I was thinking, starting to think more about what's the intersection between arts and health care and arts and medicine and the way that health care is defined in this country is this kind of line in the sand that was drawn when the then Surgeon General Vivek Murthy said that loneliness is an epidemic. This is something I'm sure you're familiar with. And it had been studied for decades. And when the Surgeon General says this is something we have to be paying attention to, friends, and it was post-COVID, but it wasn't just about COVID, it was about all kinds of things.
And then you think about, well, what's the antidote to that? If it's an epidemic, how do we treat it? I mean, that just opened up, I think, this opportunity to think about the arts as an intervention in a way that was powerful and then sanctioned by science in a way that perhaps wasn't before. We didn't have the language for it, to your point, Steven. We didn't have the permission to make it core, and now we do.
Steven Jackson:
And I think for a long time we've known that it's important, but how do we translate it so that those outside of the art and music circle can understand what we're saying?
Shelley Quiala:
Yes.
Steven Jackson:
It wasn't enough to say, hey, this is important. Now we have the data, we have Cantus and we have other outlets where people are like, oh yeah, let's put some funding towards that. Let's make some formal programs. Let's scale it so it's not just in the art circles, but it's for everybody, which is I think what you guys do-
Shelley Quiala:
Yeah.
Kari Haley:
Because I think once someone experiences it, then they get it. Or they've pushed it away, they shoved it in a box, but once you reenter that world, you experience it in a concert or something I think it really, it clicks for people.
Shelley Quiala:
Yeah.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. I want to say just one more thing, and I won't mention his name, although I don't know him personally, but he's a famous jazz trumpeter, and I think he has a neurodegenerative condition, and when he walks on stage he's kind of flat and you're kind of wondering, I wonder what he's about to do. And then the rhythm section comes in and he starts soloing and it's over. It is like, whoa, that came out of him. And so I think about expression and I think about how music and other arts enable people to express themselves. And then I think about different conditions. We're talking about dementias today, but this is another gentleman who you would never know. Like you said, if you walked in on that concert, you would never know that that's what he deals with daily by the way he plays and this guy can play, by the way.
Shelley Quiala:
Yeah, right, right.
Steven Jackson:
I'll leave it at that.
Shelley Quiala:
It's a good note to leave it on it.
Kari Haley:
It is.
Steven Jackson:
I see what you did there.
Kari Haley:
Well with that, I think, we need to thank you for coming and sharing about what you're doing because I think it's so important. We both agree, I think, on that one.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah, absolutely.
Shelley Quiala:
Yeah. Maybe we can come through someday.
Paul Scholtz:
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Shelley Quiala:
Right. Play music.
Kari Haley:
We'll have to do a recording sometime.
Paul Scholtz:
Absolutely. Yep.
Steven Jackson:
It'll be great. It'd be great.
"Off the Charts" is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley:
It is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy with creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson:
Production services provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley:
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.