NOTE TO LISTENERS: Technical difficulties affected some of the audio on this episode. Historically, there hasn’t been a lot of diversity in firefighting and emergency medical services. Seeing is believing, and two graduates of the St. Paul Fire Department’s EMS Academy Pathways program, which provides tuition-free emergency medical technician certification, share the impact representation has had on them. In the final episode of Season 1, Josh Garubanda, a firefighter-paramedic, and Nela Kurtic, a paramedic, discuss cultural barriers, the challenges of cultural nuances, navigating differences with their peers, and connecting with the communities they serve. "Off the Charts" will return soon with Season 2.
NOTE TO LISTENERS: Technical difficulties affected some of the audio on this episode.
Historically, there hasn’t been a lot of diversity in firefighting and emergency medical services. Seeing is believing, and two graduates of the St. Paul Fire Department’s EMS Academy Pathways program, which provides tuition-free emergency medical technician certification, share the impact representation has had on them.
In the final episode of Season 1, Josh Garubanda, a firefighter-paramedic, and Nela Kurtic, a paramedic, discuss cultural barriers, the challenges of cultural nuances, navigating differences with their peers, and connecting with the communities they serve. Off the Charts will return soon with Season 2.
Hosts: Kari Haley, MD, and Steven Jackson, MD
Guests: Josh Garubanda and Nela Kurtic
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
Got an idea? Have thoughts to share? We want to hear from you. Email us at offthecharts@healthpartners.com.
Kari Haley:
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson:
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley:
Together, we're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson:
Inviting voices for change without the cue cards.
Kari Haley:
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson:
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson.
Both, together:
And this is Off the Charts.
Kari Haley:
All right, well welcome to the show. Today we have two guests, in person, which is something, the new world for us. But we have two local paramedics who work in the pre-hospital setting. So these are the people who come to your house when you call 9-1-1. I'm just going to let them introduce themselves, and we're going to have a great conversation here today.
Nela Kurtic:
Hi. My name is Nela. Thank you for having me today. Thank you for having us. This is my eighth year as a paramedic. Most of that was spent working pre-hospital for a hospital-based system. And I've had about one year working as a community paramedic for Regions Hospital. I'm happy to be here. Thank you.
Steven Jackson:
Appreciate having you.
Josh Garubanda:
My name is Josh Garubanda. I'm a paramedic-firefighter. I work for the City of St. Paul. I do have some pre-hospital experience working for a private service outside of the City of St. Paul, but I've been working as a paramedic for a few years. Thanks for having us. This is great.
Steven Jackson:
I'm looking forward to diving in here. I'm just curious, how did you guys get into paramedics and, I guess, firefighting, as well, Josh?
Nela Kurtic:
I kind of surprisingly jumped into 2010, 2011. I moved to St. Paul, and Judge Cervantes here from St. Paul recommended that I go through the St. Paul Fire EMS Academy, Station 51. I got my EMT during the summer of 2011 there. And it just kind of took off. I've been around here very since.
Josh Garubanda:
Yeah, me and Nela actually have a very similar introduction to EMS. We both came through the Pathways Program through the City of St. Paul. I was a little bit older when I came through. I had already had a full career, and I only transitioned after doing a speaking tour around the country. I was working in Colorado doing disaster relief-
Steven Jackson:
Wow.
Josh Garubanda:
... and ran into some firefighters when I was out there, and they were like, "You should really think about becoming a firefighter." I was like, "Oh, I'll see if the City of St. Paul has a volunteer department." So I came back here, a little research later, found out they didn't. So I went to get my EMT, and so I was like, "OK, how can I do this?" And then I ran into the Pathways Program. That's how I got on this path. I became a EMT to become a firefighter. I became a paramedic because I was still not hired yet as a firefighter, so I was like, "Oh, let's just keep going."
Steven Jackson:
That's awesome.
Kari Haley:
That is awesome. And so, I guess if you guys would want to maybe explain a little bit more, too, what the Pathways Program is? Part of one of my other roles is one of the assistant medical directors at Regions EMS, so I have a little bit of background knowledge about the Pathways through St. Paul has offered, but maybe so our listeners have a little bit more of an idea of what the program is.
Nela Kurtic:
The program has changed over the years. When I started, it was an EMT course where you would get paid to go to school to be an EMT, and then also, they would provide clinicals for you. It was specifically directed towards low income people of color, woman, immigrants, who lived locally to have an opportunity to gain some sort of opening into a career. And then hopefully, they were hoping would also kind of project them into the fire service and diversify the department more.
Josh Garubanda:
Yeah, I think when I originally started with the city; it was through a parks and rec program. And it was associated with job readiness skills. But it was identified as a program because there was this whole lack of diversity and the lack of a conduit for diverse communities to get into EMS. It was like a pipeline to network through medical services, health care, and pre-hospital services.
Steven Jackson:
Is this something that's easy to get into? If we have listeners, especially if we have a lot of listeners that are interested in the Pathway Program, what's the best way to sort of get involved?
Josh Garubanda:
Well, with the program me and Nela went through, they're, currently right now, taking applications for their summer course. So if you're interested, you can jump on the City of St. Paul's website and find the ... Search EMS Academy, and there's a criterion, an age range, to qualify. But most young adults, 18 to 22, something like that, they can apply. It is a paid position, like Nela said.
But the idea of having a Pathway Program in EMS is still kind of a new idea. Minneapolis has a program, as well. Nationwide, these kind of pathway, pipeline programs are starting to come up and be very successful models. However, there's always funding issues. There's issues with finding accreditation and working with colleges and universities to get the programs up and running. And the sustainability of ... Just like you may know, and listeners may know, that there's a shortage of paramedics and EMTs around the country. Right now is the time, where we need more of these kind of programs. They're out there. Sometimes they're few and far between. They're usually concentrated in metropolitan areas.
Kari Haley:
Yeah, I think the metropolitan areas have a little bit better access to some funding or grants because a lot of this is funded by those types of programs, or the city, versus having it to be funded by a private sector, usually is not as ... There haven't been as many successful stories from a private sector.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Nela Kurtic:
When I went through the program, it was heavily funded by grants. I think it was beneficial, but a lot of the day-to-day stuff, a lot of the outreach, actually, the people who had gone through the program prior and the people who were employed currently, were doing the outreach and also helping kind of figure out where do we get funding. How do we reach out to people? How do we get more people interested in this?
Steven Jackson:
Sure.
Nela Kurtic:
So it's changed over the years, but I think you're right, Josh, the funding piece is definitely one of the more difficult aspects.
Steven Jackson:
I want to kind of get into why isn't there a lot of diversity traditionally in the field of, I guess, the paramedic field, so to speak. Even before switching those gears, I'm a big proponent of being exposed to things that you want to be, so to speak. You hear, "You can't be what you can't see," number one.
Josh Garubanda:
Absolutely.
Steven Jackson:
And a lot of times, it's not a question of ability when it comes to marginalized communities. It's normally, well, you didn't see the answers before the test came out, as an example, before you took the test, or you're not connected in a network that opens up the opportunity. And I think programs like the Pathway Program, and many others out there, are just an example of getting people involved in something that perhaps they didn't think they could be involved in. And now this sounds like a great opportunity for a lot of people.
Josh Garubanda:
Absolutely. Seeing it is believing. I'll tell you, when I became a firefighter, it was to ... a little bit surprising to some people I know because I know a lot of adults, and a lot of them were just like, "I've never met a Black firefighter."
Steven Jackson:
Wow.
Josh Garubanda:
I personally didn't know any Black firefighters. When I was in Colorado, those were the first firefighters I've ever interacted with. And I was like, "Tell me a little bit more about your profession." As they were telling me about their profession, I was like, "Oh, I can see how some of my life skills and my life experiences are very transferrable here." I came from outdoor recreation. I can see a lot of those skills very transferrable. And I was like, "Oh, you know what, I could ... Let me go take a better look."
So being able to see it, being able to see and touch, hear stories from other people, from your community or people who look like you, does create that access. And that's still a barrier because we don't have the stories. Here in Minnesota, it's even more so of a barrier. I just came back from a national conference in New Orleans with firefighters from all over the country. And the demographics is different, because some of their fire departments, they're about 60% people of color on their departments in D.C. and Maryland. Some other places, so, they have hundreds of firefighters, many women firefighters. So they have these demographics. We're just low more limited here just because of the racial composition of our state.
Steven Jackson:
Nela, what has been your experience as a paramedic in this community, and both good and bad? Tell us a couple of things that are top of mind for you.
Nela Kurtic:
I knew that I had wanted to do something in health care out of high school. I didn't know what that was. I spent some time working in home respite care and then also medical translating. I did that for a while. It was great. I definitely think a lot of those skills transferred. So that was nice.
But when I jumped into the EMS Academy, I went in blind. I didn't know anyone who had ever done this before or worked in public safety at all. The class itself was diverse, the one that I went through, but then when we started doing our clinicals and we started doing ride-alongs on ambulances, I was the only girl, and I was just surrounded by people who didn't look like me, people who didn't have the same life experience. There was a lot of like, "Well, explain this, and explain that, and explain this." Communication style was also very different, so there was some fumbles with that.
And now, this is my eighth year as a medic working for private EMS, at least for BLS kind of sector. It's pretty 50/50 for men and women, but not as far as color. Primarily, it's just Caucasian people working. It's weird because we also serve the suburbs and less the actual cities of St. Paul and Minneapolis. I mean, we do go into those areas, but most of the patients that we see often are people who are low income, immigrants, elderly people who are handicapped, people who don't speak English maybe who don't know how to utilize primary care, other stuff, so they heavily rely on the 9-1-1 system. And our staff doesn't always reflect those people. So I think that empathy and understanding is huge, being a health care provider. And if you don't have some sort of intersectionality with your patients, the care is just not going to be the same.
Kari Haley:
Yeah, I think that's a really-
Steven Jackson:
That's a great point.
Kari Haley:
I mean, that's spot on. Both of you can speak to this. What do you think some of the barriers are, other than maybe just the access to the knowledge of it, of the profession of EMS? What are some barriers, do you think, that both women or people of color have in entering this field?
Josh Garubanda:
There's a lot of cultural barriers. I mean, I would say that where I think I see a lot of young EMTs and paramedics kind of stumble and struggle a little bit is navigating the cultural nuances with your peers and in the workplace environment, because we work very tirelessly. We go out in a truck with two people, sometimes four if you're [inaudible 00:12:38] departments. And we have very intimate scenarios where we're helping people with their life emergencies. Could be high acuity. And you have to be able to figure out those ways to communicate with your partner, and that partner who you work with, they may be from South Dakota. They may be from Apple Valley. And you spent most of your life in East St. Paul in a metropolitan area. So I think some of the cultural nuances is really challenging.
One of the struggles that the St. Paul program, Pathways Program, had was they had all these people passing their EMT, but when they went to go apply for work, they didn't have any work experience, so no one was hiring them. So the city and [inaudible 00:13:25]-
Steven Jackson:
Interesting.
Josh Garubanda:
... BLS program so they can get patient contact hours, and they can run calls. But they needed to do that because a lot of the providers out there just weren't hiring them. They didn't have some of the same community people who can vouch for them, saying, "Oh, yeah, that's my brother. That's my sister. That's a cousin. He's good."
So I think one of the barriers for people who attain their certification initially is just figuring out how to work in the workplace and then staying in the workplace, because a lot of people kind of just get stressed out and they just leave.
Nela Kurtic:
For me, just on a personal level, going through paramedic school, I had a ride-along with a local service. And my preceptor, who I was doing the ride-along, at the end of the day goes, "I don't think this is for you." And I was like, "Oh, no, what did I do wrong?" So my immediate thing was like I thought I messed something up. Maybe I messed a drug dose up or whatever. And we had a conversation, and he said that this line of work wasn't for me based off of my demeanor.
Steven Jackson:
Your demeanor, huh?
Nela Kurtic:
My demeanor. If you look at me, I look-
Steven Jackson:
OK.
Nela Kurtic:
I'm a soft person. And people can see ... There's soft and hard and whatever. But man, I took that to heart, and I was like, "I really don't think this is probably going to be for me if ..." You don't just ... Can I use bad words on here? You can't just be a badass. You know what I mean? You have to get there. So that kind of rattled my confidence for years because, again, eight years ago, most of the time, I was still the only female on the truck or whatever, at the station. So they'd look at me for these soft skills, but they wouldn't see me as an equal. They didn't feel that I could lead and that I could be in charge and that I could give direction.
So eight years later, that's changed a little bit. I have some experience under my belt. But still, you have these people who will question you just based off of the way you look and what they assume you bring to the table. And then the other aspect for me, personally, is I'm Bosnian. We have a very direct way of communicating. There's no passive aggressive. There's no sugar coating. It's direct.
Steven Jackson:
I like that, by the way. Go ahead.
Nela Kurtic:
So coming from a woman and communicating to leadership who is primarily almost actually 100% cis heterosexual male, probably in their 50s, when I communicate directly and they see me as this soft looking girl, they're like, "Wow, she's being very abrasive." They think it's abrasive, and they stop listening to what I am saying.
Kari Haley:
You're being an aggressive female.
Nela Kurtic:
And that becomes really frustrating and eventually exhausting. So how I've coped over the years is I have found coworkers who either have some sort of relation to that or have been supportive over the years. And we have our little community. It's very subtle. And we support each other day to day. So that's kind of how, I guess, I haven't been burnt out by that.
Steven Jackson:
While you were talking, also while Josh was talking, I hear the word advocacy in my head. And I'm thinking about things like mentorship and how those things can play a role in "giving back." I believe that some of the opportunities, a lot of the opportunities that I'm afforded today are because of people that have gone before me, people that have gone through tough times. I'm not saying it's been just so easy for me, but I'm sure it's been easier because of some of the sacrifices and just some of the experiences that people have gone through before me. Speak a little bit on just the power of mentorship in helping to eliminate and/or minimize some of the barriers that you guys are speaking of.
Josh Garubanda:
Absolutely. At our fire department, mentorship is pretty big. We have a group of African American firefighters that look out for each other. Before, when I was at my private service, I actually worked with Nela there, we would find opportunities [inaudible 00:18:20] but it was me, the Black paramedic, and a Black EMT. We worked together. We used to call ourselves "Code Black." [inaudible 00:18:29] we go places. I would kind of just give them the tips of how I navigate these conversations, how I navigate small things like nurse reports, and how I navigate situations. Because like Nela said, there's definitely perceptions you get from your patients. So if I'm working with certain ... if my colleague, this happened on a few occasions, on a number of times, even if I was the lead medic, they would go to my partner and be ... And they would just talk to my partner in a way.
Nela Kurtic:
Absolutely.
Josh Garubanda:
The nurse would just talk to the partner. The doctors come talk to my partner. My partner would be like, "I don't know what you're saying. I'm an EMT." EMTs know a lot. And so just navigating those situations and having conversations so they don't get frustrated. It's easy to become frustrated. The level of patience you need sometimes can be taxing. But sometimes being able to talk through that and mentor with someone or just ... it doesn't have to be in the role of mentor, but just fostering an environment of community can help you wade through that period of time.
Nela Kurtic:
... the murky waters of the unknown.
Josh Garubanda:
Absolutely.
Steven Jackson:
Very poetic. Yeah, and I know, Nela, you had mentioned also, you used the word community as well. Because I would imagine one of the barriers, even if it's an unspoken barrier, would be just feeling isolated. When you experience something like that or ... I mean, I'm an attending physician, so I'm a staff doc. And it's not very uncommon for me to walk into a room with a resident who might be white. And the family will turn right to the resident and start talking to them. And I'm OK ... I mean, I'm secure enough to not really worry about that, but I mean, you notice it. And I would imagine somebody who doesn't have a lot of experience feeling like I'm the only one going through this. Maybe this field isn't for me. It's not familiar. And then they end up leaving. So how important has community been for you, Nela?
Nela Kurtic:
It's funny that you gave that example. I just want to put this in there. We actually, now that we're the senior people kind of in our field, at least where I work, we take on students, students, ride-alongs, EMTs who are training to be on the 9-1-1 trucks, and we watch some of the students do exactly that. So they're practicing giving report, on a dropoff at the ER or wherever, and we'll have someone walk in, and they'll assume they're the nurse or the tech.
So my thing is we always tell these students, me and my partners, "You need to start reading badges. You need to just assume everyone is a doctor, and then ask, 'Are you the doctor or are you taking care of this person? How are you taking care of this person?' So you don't come in with assumptions."
Steven Jackson:
Listen up, listeners. I love it.
Nela Kurtic:
So start paying attention, and don't come in with assumptions. I think that's big. As far as community, at least from our Station 51, I think a lot of us have remained in touch and remained friends, whether or not we ended up at the same service. And so we share family news, family events. We've become friends outside of work. Specifically at work in every day, having that community ... Let's say we have a call, and you're like, "Wow, I'm not sure about my working diagnosis or if I chose the right medications or whatever," so easily text one of those people that's part of your community and bounce ideas off of them, and maybe like, "This is what I did the last time I saw that," or, "This is my suggestion." And then just having that as a resource is great. I think it makes us better clinicians to have someone, where when you have that community, the communication is open.
Kari Haley:
That's for sure.
Steven Jackson:
Yep.
Kari Haley:
For sure. I'd like to expand maybe a little bit, too, on this community piece, because I do think ... I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts of what do you think it means to the communities that we serve to have diversity, to the people in EMS who are firefighting that show up to their house when they're in a time of crisis or need? What kind of feedback have you gotten from the community? What do you think the community feels about seeing someone that actually might look like them or talk like them or believe the same things that they do?
Josh Garubanda:
Going back to the whole, "I've never met another Black firefighter ..." I've been on a number of calls. I mean, I'm very fortunate and I feel very blessed to be able to work in the city that I grew up in because often I feel like it's a privilege to be able to help take care of people that are my friends' family members, and so to help be a liaison in that moment of pain and uncertainty.
So when we come through the door, and most people aren't expecting us to be there typically. That's not how they wanted their day to go. I've heard that there's a sigh of relief because they knew that they could let ... We can close those ambulance doors, and there's someone in the back there that's going to look out for them, like that mentor level. They're still-
Nela Kurtic:
A sense of safety.
Josh Garubanda:
Absolutely. We've all gotten the crash course through the pandemic about the health care disparities and the trust people don't have with health care. I have a small child right now, and we're looking for a dentist. We're looking for a Black dentist, a person of color, who was a physician, because I want to make sure my kid has this advocacy. Now, do I think that really plays a significant role? After working in health care, I think it does. I think it does. And I think most community members also understand that.
So being a provider that can show up, I had someone not too long ago, that I showed up, and they had a significant physical injury, and when they saw me, and I could say, "Hey, it's Josh," and then they snapped out of their pain for a moment, to be like, "Oh, hey Josh," because I grew up with the guy. You know?
Steven Jackson:
Oh, yeah.
Josh Garubanda:
He's like, "I just knew at that point I'll be fine," in the long term. I'll take care of him. But that we care for family members is significant.
Kari Haley:
I have a very soft spot for immigrants, refugees, people where English might not be their primary language, because I have that experience when we first came here. I am Caucasian, and I have no accent ... many years of ESL (English as a second language). But the beginning of my experience living here as an immigrant in the US is a very core part of who I am. I remember the experiences. So when I go ... Let's say we go to a 9-1-1, and it is an immigrant family who has very specific customs that might take a little more time. Their family structure and how they communicate and how decisions are made, especially for transport or what's going to happen next, having that empathy and understanding that they might have a way of doing things that's different than from how the majority of people maybe we see do things I think allows them to slow down and not rush them, because they're already going into this situation with a lot of fear and anxiety. And the tempo that 9-1-1 and a lot of these things that are new to people, brings a lot of extra anxiety and fear.
Steven Jackson:
Sure. Sure.
Kari Haley:
They don't know how it works. So I think one of the things that happens with empathy is you allow them to also do their own thing. You take the time to let them sort through whatever they need to sort through, familially to make decisions or prepare to go somewhere. That might even look like, instead of just being like, "I'm not going to use language line because I don't have time," we will make time to use the language line, or we will find someone to help communicate better if the communication's not that great. That's kind of what it looks like.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. And it's like we're getting into the meat of a lot of what our episodes entail, and that's going back to trust. Like, how do we build trust? And I'm hearing, well, sometimes it takes more time than maybe expected, but it's still needed. Sometimes it takes to have a better understanding of the population that you serve. And I think even stepping back a little bit from the cultural aspect, I mean, just look at the fact that we're all human, and we have a lot of the same needs. We all want to be communicated with appropriately. We all need someone to exercise and show empathy. We need some people just to just chill and let us kind of process for a second. There's a lot going on. And I think you guys are really hitting on something powerful. Because again, we often talk about trust on our show. I'm curious, how hard is it to establish trust and establish some sort of working relationship in the moment of crisis? Do you guys have any tips? Any experience?
Kari Haley:
Especially, just to add onto that, we in health care, like with physicians, nurses, we're seeing patients in our house. Right? Paramedics are bringing, EMTs are bringing people to our house, our hospitals, our clinics. We are able to control the environment. And I think that gives us a very different perspective. And what I love about EMS is that you are in the actual homes. The trust there is so different than when they come to our house or the hospital, the clinical setting. Yeah, just to add on to what Steve's question was ...
Nela Kurtic:
As far as pre-hospital 9-1-1s, brand-new person, you've never met them before. They've never met you before. Trust begins when you begin to listen. Let them tell you their story and what's going on. This story might have started three weeks ago, but just letting them have the opportunity to explain what's going on. And then the questions that you respond with in return should relate to what you were listening to, and not just going through like-
Steven Jackson:
Your script.
Nela Kurtic:
"What are your sign and symptoms? What medications do you take?" But taking the time to listen and just try to understand how they got to where they got to. I love asking, "So what do you think is going on?" Because you're asking them for their opinion and to also contribute to the understanding of what are we potentially treating, what are we working with.
Steven Jackson:
And you're also empowering the people you serve, because you go in, they're in a crisis of some type. And you come in with uniform and all the knowledge and the bells and the whistles, stethoscope, etc. There's a power imbalance. You saying something as simple as, "What do you think is going on?" or, "What's meaningful for you?" those kinds of things, that shifts the power imbalance. And I think that also helps build the trust, too, because now they're comfortable. You know?
Nela Kurtic:
Yep.
Josh Garubanda:
Absolutely. I mean, a lot of it is ... a lot of things get communicated with just body language, as well. A lot of times, like Nela was saying, those are ... You really nailed it. But body language is huge. It's very common that a lot of us will walk into scenes. We won't ride. We'll walk into the emergencies and try to keep calm and even toned tempo when we're talking to folks who might be yelling at us or might not be listening to us.
But we walk into so many situations in people's homes where the lighting's poor. They're in a awkward positioning. There's contributing factors that it seems like an episode of Chicago Fire. There's just weird nuances that, if we take a moment to slow down, remember that you're responding to a emergency. But at the same time, people call 9-1-1 without knowing always what to anticipate. And so there's a lot of foreigners and people ... I was also a foreigner. I was born in Kenya, and so I get that. I understand because I know people, when they first come here, they're told, "Hey, if something happens, call 9-1-1 and people will come and rescue you." But that doesn't mean that they need to go to the hospital sometimes.
So sometimes it's like, "Hey, this is what we're seeing," and giving them all that information and saying, "What would you like to do? You know what? If she was my family, this is what I would do." You know?
Nela Kurtic:
Yep. Asking them what kind of support they need, because, yeah, you're right, it might not be go to the ER.
Josh Garubanda:
Yeah.
Nela Kurtic:
Sometimes it is that, but sometimes they're looking for something else, some sort of other support.
Steven Jackson:
That's great.
Josh Garubanda:
Sometimes it's just a first-time parent that they're just dealing with a kid choking on formula and just coughs it up. They're just worried that they're the worst parents on the planet, so they're calling 9-1-1.
And they don't need to go to the ER, but they need that reassurance and having folks that can take the time and be patient with them to do those process regardless of what time it is and regardless if it's supposed to be dinner.
Nela Kurtic:
I know. People are so apologetic when we show up at odd times. I start at 6:00 a.m., so they'll apologize because it's early in the day.
Steven Jackson:
Wow.
Nela Kurtic:
I'm like, "I've been up since 4. I'm here to take are of you. Don't apologize. What do you need?"
Steven Jackson:
Wow. Amazing. I think about being all things for all people. When I think about equity, and you know this is a health equity podcast, I think about the definition of equity. One can look at it as giving people what they need so that they can have an equal chance to be successful. And so I see, when you guys go into the homes of families that are in need, likely some sort of medical need, it's not a I'm going to go in with my script and make sure I get all my questions answered and check all of my personal boxes so that I can close the case out. But it's more of a ... It's a partnership. It's a relationship. And it's, "What do you need at this time?" and listening, and ... Yeah, and by the way, listeners, we didn't set them up. We didn't feed them lines. This is just so in line with a lot of things that we talk about, and this is just really good.
Kari Haley:
Yeah. I just want to thank you both again for taking the time to come here, tell us your stories, provide some background on what it means to be a pre-hospital health care provider, because I think that's a whole new world for probably a lot of our listeners, that they don't even know about. So again, just thank you so much for being here. Thank you for everything that you do every single day, as well, and just know that, as someone who's also involved in EMS, just I have so much respect for everyone who's out there in the streets.
Josh Garubanda:
Yeah, thanks for having us. This is wonderful. We work in a weird profession, so sharing some stories about why we love working and what we do, it's a treat for me.
Nela Kurtic:
Yes. Thank you for having us. Having a space where we can even discuss things like this is very affirming. It feels good to know that there are other people who think about and worry about the same things.
Steven Jackson:
Well, I've truly been educated and inspired to keep taking the message out to the community. There are some good people in the world that are here to help. And they will be there when you call. So thank you, Josh, thank you, Nela.
Nela Kurtic:
Thank you.
Josh Garubanda:
Thank you.
Steven Jackson:
Off the Charts is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley:
It is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy with creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers, and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson:
Production services provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley:
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.