It’s important to understand that equity, the quality of being fair and impartial, means we don’t all start from the same place. Equity in the workplace starts with commitment and alignment. Rhonda Cox, vice president of people and culture for Saint Paul and Minnesota Foundation, shares why equity’s important to her and what inspired her to want to shape, create and influence workplace culture to be more inclusive and equitable for colleagues.
It’s important to understand that equity, the quality of being fair and impartial, means we don’t all start from the same place. Equity in the workplace starts with commitment and alignment.
Rhonda Cox, vice president of people and culture for Saint Paul and Minnesota Foundation, shares why equity’s important to her and what inspired her to want to shape, create and influence workplace culture to be more inclusive and equitable for colleagues.
Hosts: Kari Haley, MD, and Steven Jackson, MD
Guest: Rhonda Cox
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
Got an idea? Have thoughts to share? We want to hear from you. Email us at offthecharts@healthpartners.com.
Kari Haley:
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson:
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley:
Together we're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson:
Inviting voices for change without the cue cards.
Kari Haley:
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson:
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson.
Both, together:
And this is "Off the Charts."
Steven Jackson:
Hello and welcome to "HealthPartners Off the Charts: Examining the Health Equity Emergency." Today we're talking about equity and philanthropy as well as equity in all spaces with Rhonda Cox, and we are very so glad to have her. The vice president of people and culture at the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation, a statewide community foundation established in 1940 that stores $1.8 billion in charitable assets for communities. Hello, Rhonda, and welcome to the show.
Rhonda Cox:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Steven Jackson:
We're really happy to have you with us. And tell us a little bit about your journey and just why equity is important to you personally and then let's just dive into how it's important to you even professionally.
Rhonda Cox:
Yeah. So originally born in Detroit, Michigan. Attended Howard University. Lived in D.C. for several years and really found my way in the world living in the district. I moved to the Twin Cities and worked for a lot of large for-profit organizations where I was oftentimes responsible for executing. And I didn't have an opportunity to really create, shape or influence. So I wanted an opportunity to shape, create and influence as it relates to equity in the workplace. And I fell into this job at the St. Paul & Minnesota Foundation. And now I have an opportunity to do the things that I'm passionate about, which is really influencing work cultures to be more inclusive and to be more equitable for our staff.
Kari Haley:
I'd like to maybe just go back a little bit. I know thinking about your past experiences in the workforce as maybe someone who wasn't the person to make the decisions to make the change. But can you tell us a little bit of any experiences that you had as a woman of color in the workforce, especially in leading teams, HR, hiring, all of that?
Rhonda Cox:
Yeah. I mean, I think back to the time that I spent with Toys "R" Us. So worked in retail, overnight shifts. And I think about the lack of women in that environment and specifically as a manager and the disrespect that women received. Leading people and giving directions about where boxes went and how to process shipments and things like that. So that was a pivotable point in my work experience and really shaped how I wanted to lead in the future because I wanted people, women specifically to have leadership experience. And I wanted them to have tools and resources to influence different behavior as it relates to their own experience and the experience of other people in the workplace. So I think it was that time at Toys "R" Us when I'm, 4 o'clock in the morning slinging boxes and just really deciding this is probably not the place that I want to be, and I want to create places where others can thrive and create a more equitable work environment. So that had shaped the rest of my career trajectory.
Steven Jackson:
I was in a meeting earlier today where we were specifically talking about culture. And culture in my mind is basically the definition of what you do and how you do it. And when it comes to equity, I think what's important, but also a challenge is moving from equity and the concept of equity along with inclusion and belonging, which are all very important things in of themselves. Moving them from being extra to being embedded in the workplace. Because when we have national tragedies, obviously we just passed the four-year anniversary of George Floyd being murdered. When we have national tragedies like that, that you can't unsee or unhear, then it's easy to put out diversity, equity, and inclusion statements for your enterprise or for your organization because it's trendy.
But when things "die down" I put that in quotes because things never die down. But when they die down at least from the court of public opinion, then it gets a little quiet and now DEI becomes now extra. Now funding for DEI is being attacked and taken and criticized and scrutinized, whereas four years ago it was the bee's knees. So how do we move from, and we're going to write down things because you want to solve the problem today, so thank you. But how do we move from it being this extra thing that we talk about at the water cooler as opposed to being ingrained and embedded in our practices and processes?
Rhonda Cox:
Yeah. I think that's exactly it. It has to be ingrained in who we are. So I think about my own organization and how equity is part of our strategy, advocating for equity as a strategy. So it isn't an exercise in convincing leadership that we need to do X, Y and Z. Because part of why you joined the organization is because of the strategies. You're aligned with our mission. So we don't have to do that. Like I said, that politicking where you convince people that we need to do X, Y and Z for equity's sake. But it really does start with a commitment alignment. I think the other thing is an understanding of what equity means and how the organization is defining equity. And that's that we don't all start from the same place. So how do you ensure in your processes, in the way that you think about the work and the way that you treat people, how do you ensure that that's all embedded in your policies, processes, and guidelines? And it has to start with it being part of who you are at your core.
Steven Jackson:
Preach.
Rhonda Cox:
Yes.
Kari Haley:
I think that's interesting, and I think a lot of this too in what you're saying too. Your initial onboarding and attracting people, so recruiting people to your organization. This is our message, this is our mission. But then I lately have really been thinking about the retention piece. How do we keep people and how do we develop people along the same spectrum? Because I think it's easier to do the initial onboarding policies, procedures, this is how we do things, this is how we hire people. But how do we continue that 10 years down the line? How are we developing people 15 years down the line?
Rhonda Cox:
So we have a bit of an interesting perspective on retention, or maybe it's me that has the interesting perspective. But because we are a philanthropic organization and we want to increase knowledge in the philanthropic community, our goal is not to retain people into perpetuity. We want people to come into the organization, build the philanthropic muscle, and then take those skills, go lead other philanthropic organizations. So the goal isn't always to retain. But while you're here, we want you to identify in partnership with your manager, what are the skills that you want to learn? And how do we create experiences to give you exposure to those skills? There's a 70/20/10 model of development. And it's 70% of what you learn to build skills is in the day-to-day work that you do. 20% of it I think is through relationships and 10% of it is in training. The 70%, I'm absolutely sure of, the other two I could have.
But the majority of what we learn and how we develop and build skills isn't what we're doing day to day. So it's identifying what do people want to learn? What do you want to do in five or 10 years? And then what are the skills that you're going to need in five to 10 years? Because they may be different as the world is changing. So how do we give you exposure to experiences and opportunities that are going to help you build those skills?
Kari Haley:
That makes a lot of sense.
Steven Jackson:
So some of the skills necessary, I think even backing up before that, because just going back to the practice and the principle of embedding the principles of equity and inclusion and diversity and what that actually looks like in said organization. Because like you say, it might mean different things to different people and people are in different places. Yet we all have to eventually arrive to a place where we can have similar dialogue, similar conversation to meet the needs that are out there. We're not just talking to be talking, we're talking to eventually lead to action. But what are some of the challenges with even having a dialogue?
Rhonda Cox:
So again, I feel like I'm in a really privileged place because it's part of who we are. So the conversations are a lot easier. I think where we have challenging conversations are when we think about changing processes or policies. And one of the ways that we have approached to making those changes is to engage a focus group of staff to give their perspective and their opinions, and they may uncover biases that we haven't thought about. And it's a similar model that the organization, the foundation uses. It's called form informed benefits. So those who are most impacted by the decisions inform them. So we use that same model inside the organization. So starting the conversation is by engaging people in some of the changes that we're going to make. And I think that's where we've had the most success. And those have been some of the most, I would say, uncomfortable conversations. And I can give you a quick example.
Steven Jackson:
Sure.
Kari Haley:
Yes.
Rhonda Cox:
So about six years ago, there was a request by a staff member to start using pronouns on their business card. It's commonplace now. But six years ago it wasn't. And what we didn't want to do was slap a pronoun on a business card without understanding what it meant or how it might impact other people in the organization. Perhaps individuals that weren't comfortable having their pronouns on a business card or a name tag. So we decided based on this feedback from this focus group, we decided to have an internal training.
And we had two levels of training, one for the executive leadership team and the other for staff. So that there was open dialogue and people had an understanding of what does it mean to use pronouns in a workplace? What does it mean when you put it on a business card and someone outside of the organization ask you what that means? How do you engage in conversation in a way that's productive and that you feel supported by your organization? So that was a bit of a challenging exercise at that point in time. Now, it would be much different, but six years ago wasn't the case.
Steven Jackson:
So was it challenging back then having that conversation? And the reason I keep asking about challenges, because I'm thinking about situations where let's say you're brand new to a company and let's just say hypothetically speaking, a position of chief diversity officer was a newly created position for this company. And now they bring you in, and now maybe 50% of people are looking at you like, well, why are you here in the first place because we don't need that. The other 50% are like, are you going to do something because we have problems. How do you infiltrate yourself into a space where you know you're needed, but people may not know that you're needed?
Rhonda Cox:
I think the first thing that you have to do in any relationship, because that's a relationship, is build trust. You have to build trust with people.
Steven Jackson:
There's that word again.
Rhonda Cox:
You have to. And I think you all know that as physicians-
Steven Jackson:
Absolutely.
Rhonda Cox:
... with your patients. They have to trust that you have their best interest at heart. So it's the same thing with the person coming into the organization.
Steven Jackson:
Absolutely.
Rhonda Cox:
They have to believe that you are here for good and not for ill, and that you're going to listen. And the first time you violate that trust, done.
Steven Jackson:
We talk a lot about trust.
Kari Haley:
We talk a lot about trust, and we've talked about that point, too, before like, you can spend five years building trust, get a little bit of trust, but it's that one time, it can break five years' worth of development. That's hard. That's really hard.
Rhonda Cox:
It is. I think it's easier to build trust if you're authentic in who you are with the individual that you're working with and they see who you are and you demonstrate through words and actions both in front of them and when they're not looking. Then the trust piece is really easy. But if you're inauthentic then, all bets are off.
Steven Jackson:
Because you have to be somebody in this setting, then you have to change who you are in this setting. And then you get mixed up I'm sure after a while.
Kari Haley:
Code switching.
Rhonda Cox:
Who was I when I was, yeah.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. Exactly. Well how does what we are talking about when we talk about DEI, how was it done in the philanthropic sector? What does that look like and how does it apply?
Rhonda Cox:
Yeah. I'm sure you've heard, it depends. I think it depends on the organization and what they're trying to accomplish. I think it depends on who they are at their core and how they want to show up in the community. I think it depends on what their leadership believes and what their core values are. I think that people in philanthropy are in philanthropy because they want to do good. And I think different organizations define that good in different ways. So I think about people in the workforce now, especially coming into the workforce now, there's a strong desire to have alignment with mission and vision and values. And I think that that's very different than prior generations where you worked for the same organization for your entire career.
But I think if people really want to work for an organization where there's an alignment of mission and vision and values, philanthropy is largely that place. I think people that work in philanthropy, and at least my experience has been, there's a good bit of listening that happens. So I feel very confident that you could talk with any staff member at our organization and they can see themselves in our strategies and vision because they've had a hand in shaping it. So I think the more that you can bring people into those activities where they can see themselves in the work, that's one of the things I think that is very unique about working in philanthropy versus a large corporate conglomerate where you see a vision and a mission on a wall that it may or may not resonate with you and you didn't have a chance to influence it.
So I think those are some of the ways that I see philanthropy evolving and why people are choosing to work in philanthropy. I think especially post pandemic and post racial reckoning in George Floyd's murder and all of the things that have happened over the past five years, it's given a lot of us an opportunity to reflect where do I really want to spend my time and how do I want to spend it? And is it in a place where I can give back and do good in the world?
Steven Jackson:
That's powerful.
Kari Haley:
Yeah. I'm just reflecting on that. I mean, I'm thinking one with philanthropy in thinking about the community engagement piece of things like, how can people who maybe aren't part of a philanthropic organization or don't have ties to foundations and maybe don't know where to start. How can people get engaged and how can they make those connections even on the very small level within their communities?
Rhonda Cox:
I think it's understanding where their passion is. Are there certain causes that are near and dear to their heart? There's always a way to volunteer at organizations that might meet those needs. There's boards that people can sit on. There's low to no cost to boards depending upon what the board is. There are advisory councils. We're always looking for people that can provide their expertise. I sit on the board of the crisis nursery where our goal is to eliminate childhood neglect and abuse and create healthy, happy families. So I got into that work as a result of working at the foundation. But there's volunteer opportunities at that organization. So I think it's identifying what's your passion? What are things that you're really moved about?
And a great way to test whether or not whatever that organization is the right one, is to volunteer. It's a low entry point. It's not a huge time commitment. It could be a one-time only activity or multiple. And you get to control what your level of engagement is by volunteering. So I think that's a great way. It could be as easy as a Google search. Organizations that do X, Y and Z in X city, I think, is a great way to start to look for ways to get involved.
Kari Haley:
Because I can see people who maybe feel frustrated in their big corporate job or they're lost in the corporate world who maybe want, but don't necessarily have the means right now to be able to pursue that in their career, but they want to do something. So volunteerism is a great, I agree way to maybe tip the toes in the water, see how things go.
Steven Jackson:
I think even referencing the meeting I was in earlier today, we concluded that there is a balance between, and we're talking about the whole concept of, again, embedding equity into our processes and practices. We know that there is a component, so our success is related to a component of that being the actual process itself. So creating a process, whether you make it mandatory or at least strongly encourage that process. Whether it's like a training or something like that, something standardized. But it can't only be that because people are just doing it because they have to or because they're told to as opposed to it being something that they feel compelled to do or they're passionate about. So we've concluded that there's a balance of the process itself, but also there has to be engagement. There has to be a degree of my heart and my mind is also committed to this thing that I'm doing. The reason I bring that up because you used words like passion. And even volunteering, people don't tend to volunteer. They're not interested, unless they're trying to pat their resume or CV-
Kari Haley:
Pop up their CV a little bit.
Steven Jackson:
Speak a little bit more about maybe that passion and maybe even the power of storytelling when it comes to philanthropy. Have you had any experiences with that?
Rhonda Cox:
So our CEO and president is an amazing storyteller and you can really get wrapped up in his world listening to him tell stories. When I think about storytelling, I think about some of the ways that we've been able to positively impact staff members that have joined us and what we might hear from them as they're on their way to their next journey and how the foundation has opened its arms up. A lot of times people fall into philanthropy maybe much like I did. My previous boss fell into philanthropy, she was a litigator and has gained some incredible skills, is now leading president and CEO of an organization. So I think there's some awesome stories to be told about how careers can evolve and people can change.
I also think that there are great stories about what we do in our partnerships with community organizations and how we help them grow, how we see the money that they might be granted fuel work in the community. I think about lots of places that we see in the Twin Cities, Cookie Cart, and there are lots of places that get money from the work that the foundation does. So that's not a specific story but that's just really about how I experienced the foundation influencing these stories of success and community building and love.
Steven Jackson:
So I think about the threefold approach that perhaps we have here with some of our campaigns. And it can be through a monetary donation, it can be through a telling of your story or you can give by volunteering as well. But again, in any of those three methods of giving, people don't give what they don't feel drawn to. And that's why I brought up the power of storytelling because again, you can come up with a perfect process but you still need people to execute that process. Why do you engage people? You get them here and you tell them, you don't just say, "Hey, I need a million dollars." You show them what a million dollars is going to do. In fact, you introduce them to the people that are impacted by that million dollars and then they might give 20 million if they see what's really happening. That's near and dear to my heart, the power of storytelling. I tell a lot of stories too, not lies, ladies and gentlemen, stories.
Kari Haley:
And I think we found that with the podcast too, giving people opportunities to tell their stories and having the audiences be able to hear different perspectives. Maybe you sit across from a colleague and you never knew their background, you never know what they've gone through. But having people giving them the opportunity to do that, to be able to share, I think is really powerful. And I think that through your work that you do, it's like giving millions of people the opportunity to tell their small stories and take part into a greater, bigger good.
Steven Jackson:
Any closing takeaways, particularly for those are out there that are listening that might be on the fence about this whole equity thing, although we know it's more than an equity thing and they also might be on the fence about even the concept of philanthropy and why that's important. What would you say to those people that need more information?
Rhonda Cox:
Yeah. I think there are two things. One of them is when I think about equity, it really is a pretty simple definition for me. And that's that we don't all start from the same place. So how do we create space for people to catch up if they're not starting at the same place? How do we level the playing field? It's kind of a common term. But I think making sure that we take into consideration what others, the experiences that they may not have had when we're in work environments and creating policies and practices and things like that. As it relates to philanthropy, I've been philanthropic my whole life. So if you think about, I mean, I grew up in church and that is a form of philanthropy. Taking care of other people. So I think if we are able to expand how we see philanthropy and the philanthropic world, I think people will realize that there are more of us that are philanthropic than they really realize.
Steven Jackson:
That's great. Well, listen, heartfelt, thank you to you on behalf of all our listeners. We are again fortunate to learn. I wish I had enough pen and paper, all the episodes that we have recorded-
Kari Haley:
Every time.
Steven Jackson:
... just to learn and to remember because just a lot of pearls and gems today. We really appreciate your time.
Rhonda Cox:
Thank you.
Kari Haley:
Thank you so much for coming and being on the podcast. Thank you.
Rhonda Cox:
Thank you for the invitation.
Steven Jackson:
"Off the Charts" is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley:
It is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy, with creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson:
Production services provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley:
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.