In this special episode of Off the Charts, we get to know co-host Kari Haley, MD, an emergency medicine physician and assistant medical director of Regions Hospital EMS. Dr. Haley shares stories about her birth in South Korea, adoption and growing up in Delano, Minnesota, her decision to pursue emergency medicine and passion for health equity.
In this special episode of Off the Charts, we get to know co-host Kari Haley, MD, an emergency medicine physician and assistant medical director of Regions Hospital EMS.
Dr. Haley shares stories about her birth in South Korea, adoption and growing up in Delano, Minnesota, her decision to pursue emergency medicine and passion for health equity.
Host: Steven Jackson, MD
Guest: Kari Haley, MD
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
Got an idea? Have thoughts to share? We want to hear from you. Email us at offthecharts@healthpartners.com.
Kari Haley (00:01):
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson (00:04):
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley (00:07):
Together. We're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson (00:10):
Inviting voices for change without the cue cards.
Kari Haley (00:14):
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson (00:16):
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson.
Both, together (00:18):
And this is "Off the Charts."
Kari Haley (00:30):
First off. We'd really like to thank the annual employee giving campaign for making the podcast possible.
Steven Jackson (00:36):
Absolutely, absolutely. If it wasn't for them, we wouldn't have these episodes all ready to go and just appreciate the generosity and just the overwhelming support that we've had since we've launched as of January 3rd. It's been great.
Kari Haley (00:52):
Yeah, everyone has given us amazing feedback, great ideas, and we love hearing all of that. So keep it coming. We have an email, offthecharts@healthpartners.com. So, we appreciate you sending us ideas, guests, and really any feedback in general.
Steven Jackson (01:09):
You know, guys, again, we just want to thank you for all the support that we've gotten so far and it's been fun. It's new, it's fresh and exciting. And, we have some plans as we move forward into what we feel is bright future for this podcast. And, we just thought it was fitting especially early on, to sort of do a couple of episodes where we sort of tell you guys who we are. So you kind of know who you're listening to more than just the fact that we're both doctors and we work at HealthPartners. And, so today for your listening pleasure, I'm going to be interviewing my partner in crime, Dr. Kari Haley. It should be a treat. We're going to learn some things about her that perhaps no one has ever heard of ever in life and it should be fun. So, Dr. Haley, how are you doing today?
Kari Haley (01:59):
I'm doing pretty well today. It's a good day.
Steven Jackson (02:03):
I promise not to ask you anything incriminating without your permission so it should be fun. So, I guess just jumping right into it, tell me about your childhood. Tell me where you come from and just your upbringing, those kinds of things.
Kari Haley (02:17):
Yeah. Oh, so kind of a convoluted story. This begins in South Korea where I was born. I was adopted to a family in Minnesota, and so I grew up in a small town called Delano, Minnesota. Population when I was there, probably 3,500 as one of few non-white people in the community, definitely a farming community, but had a great childhood growing up there. Great family, big family. I have three siblings and kind of just stuck around in the Midwest for the most part, most of my life.
Steven Jackson (02:52):
OK. OK. And would you say that growing up, did you notice things like discrimination or did people go out of their way to let you know that, "Hey, you're different than us" or "You may not fit in." Tell us about that.
Kari Haley (03:11):
Yeah. It was kind of interesting considering, so since it was such a small community, we all knew each other since we were like preschool, kindergarten. So we all grew up together. We graduated together. It was less than 200 of us. So honestly, I really didn't feel a lot of that outsider piece of things because I was just there. I wasn't like, "Oh, Kari's different. Kari's here. She's always been here." But, kind of as I grew older, reflected on a few things that, "Oh, maybe that was a little bit biased that happened in my childhood." But, honestly, it was not a significant piece of my childhood, which was, I feel very lucky about.
Steven Jackson (03:53):
That's good. And you have, you said three siblings?
Kari Haley (03:56):
I do.
Steven Jackson (03:57):
Now, where do you fall in age of your siblings?
Kari Haley (03:58):
I am the oldest.
Steven Jackson (03:59):
Uh-oh.
Kari Haley (03:59):
I know.
Steven Jackson (04:00):
Uh-oh.
Kari Haley (04:01):
Oldest child syndrome.
Steven Jackson (04:03):
Are you bossy?
Kari Haley (04:05):
Well, I was more bossy as a child. I will... My brothers and sister would say that I was probably a bossy sister, but I feel like I've grown out of my bossiness.
Steven Jackson (04:13):
OK. I'm just checking. Because, if so, I'll start calling you ma'am. Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. All right. That's cool. So. At what point did you know you wanted to go into medicine?
Kari Haley (04:22):
It was late in the game.
Steven Jackson (04:23):
OK.
Kari Haley (04:23):
I was in college.
Steven Jackson (04:23):
Oh, wow.
Kari Haley (04:25):
I went to college thinking I was going to be an engineer. And then I took physics and decided that was not going to happen.
Steven Jackson (04:29):
I think a lot of us took physics and knew a lot was it going to happen.
Kari Haley (04:35):
Well, I am definitely not a physics engineering type, so I switched to biological sciences and I was like, "I still want to do science. I don't really like working in a lab." And, then I did a program at one of the major hospitals in Minneapolis and they had a research program and it was in the emergency department. And I think my first shift there, they opened someone's chest and I was like, "This is amazing."
Steven Jackson (05:01):
Wow.
Kari Haley (05:01):
"I want to do this." So, there began my pursuit of medicine.
Steven Jackson (05:06):
And you end up attending which medical school?
Kari Haley (05:08):
I went to medical college of Wisconsin in Milwaukee.
Steven Jackson (05:11):
OK. OK. And did you know, I mean, it sounds like from your experience, you knew kind of early, you wanted to do something, whether surgery or ER (emergency room), or did you know pretty early?
Kari Haley (05:21):
Yeah. I mean, I went into medical school pretty much assuming I was going to do emergency medicine. I was one of those, "Well, I'll keep my options open." I did enjoy going into the clinic and doing family medicine and pediatrics, because I enjoyed hearing people and listening to what they had to say, but ultimately decided that I just didn't feel like that was going to be something I do for the rest of my life all day, every day. So, went back to my origins and pursued emergency medicine.
Steven Jackson (05:50):
So fast forward now, now you are an emergency medicine doctor here at HealthPartners. And, so how are things going generally with COVID and everything else out there?
Kari Haley (06:02):
Honestly, it's been really tough. I mean our departments, I think taken a lot of the burden on with seeing a lot of sick COVID patients first off and then with volumes being higher in the boarding situations at the hospital. So in the last six months, I mean, we've just... Our emergency departments are so busy and people are so sick. And, people still have COVID and it's just like one thing on top of the other and we're just trying to still juggle it all. And, still you know, at the beginning of the pandemic, people didn't come to the emergency department. They were like, "I don't want to go there." We normally see a handful of things that probably could be adequately seen in like an urgent care or a clinic, but they didn't come. Those kind of cases didn't come.
Kari Haley (06:56):
But, now we are seeing a lot of those cases come back. A lot of mental health, a lot of sick extremists of chronic conditions and then a lot of sick COVID and people are really, really struggling. So, thinking about people in extremists, thinking they are at the extreme of their disease. So people who have asthma, they are in a really, really bad place in their asthma. They need to be in the emergency department because they might need to have really significant therapies in order to get better. But, it's just been kind of it's a bit stressful, hard to keep the work at home, not bring or keep the work at work, not bring it home slip of the tongue. And, I think our colleagues are definitely feeling the burden.
Steven Jackson (07:45):
So, how are you able to balance taking care of yourself and being able to cope and adjust with our environment, but at the same time be available and be present and be your best self for patients and it for families and colleagues even.
Kari Haley (08:01):
Yeah. You know, I think part of it was for me dropping my time that I spend working. So, in the last year and a half, I dropped some of my clinical time and that just gave me that ability to breathe. I wasn't working so many shifts I was able to pursue outside activity which really re energizes me is being able to either take time to myself to kind of work on projects or do things like this podcast.
Steven Jackson (08:26):
That's right.
Kari Haley (08:26):
To really reinvigorate me and make me remember people's other people's perspectives. So, when I go to work, I'm not just thinking about, "Oh, this is horrible. This is so bad." Just thinking about, "Oh, the person, my patient that I'm having... They're here, they're not working. They're here because they're sick." And, being able to keep that perspective has been really helpful.
Steven Jackson (08:47):
So, it sounds to me like you have specific things that perhaps you do to sort of keep your tank full. What are some of the things that you like to do that keep you sane so that you can be the great physician that you are?
Kari Haley (09:00):
Well, I-
Steven Jackson (09:00):
That'll be $5, by the way.
Kari Haley (09:03):
Yes. At least $5. I like to... I mean I have three kids, so I spend a lot of time with them. They are home with me almost all the time, but also they're not a burden. They help me. They are so helpful. They are a reason why I'm going to work. We can think about all the cool things we can do together when I'm not working and come up with plans. And, that kind of the future thinking stuff really helps me keep me going. We enjoy hiking. So, getting outdoors is very helpful just being in nature, having that moment to again, just be, "Oh, breathe." And cooking. I like cooking.
Steven Jackson (09:45):
That's cool. So, and our next show, Dr. Haley's going to bring some food to the studio. We'll sample it.
Kari Haley (09:52):
Yes. We'll cook some Korean food and we will sample some Korean cooking.
Steven Jackson (09:57):
And I like to eat. So, you know.
Kari Haley (09:59):
It's a win-win situation then.
Steven Jackson (10:00):
Yeah, I think so. I think so. So, as an emergency medicine doctor, I mean you're on the front line. I mean, I'm a rehab doctor. We'll get into my story later, but you're on the front line of the front line and I'm assuming that you get stressed sometimes, every now and again. So tell us, a story or two that really stands out in your mind, especially related to whether COVID, or even some of our diversity and inclusion work where maybe it wasn't a such a great day for you.
Kari Haley (10:33):
Working in the emergency departments, we just see people on their worst days, some days. Sometimes it's because they're super sick sometimes it's because they're having a mental health crisis sometimes it's because they're having a social crisis and those are the ones that really kind of hurt my probably soul a little bit more. And probably when I can get drained easily and not be at my best is when I'm dealing circumstances with patients that it's a horrible social situation. You want to help them. Sometimes it's they don't want to help themselves. They're in the path of addiction. They're not there yet to be wanting to be sober or it's because they're homeless and there's literally no place for them to go. And, you can't create a place for them to go from the emergency depart, but then you're also... There's 25 in the waiting room.
Kari Haley (11:20):
You have some other super-sick patients that you need to take care of. So, you can't have them continue to stay in that room it's-
Steven Jackson (11:29):
Yeah.
Kari Haley (11:29):
Still need to see these other super sick people. So, that's where there can be conflict. And, there can be times where you feel like you're not doing your best for the person in front of you, but you also have to think about all the other people that you need to do good for as well, and try to balance that. And, it's sometimes that's the social stuff that really sucks at my soul, in my position where I'm working in the emergency department.
Steven Jackson (11:51):
But, you're working on a solution though, right? Like you're going to fix that by tomorrow.
Kari Haley (11:56):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
Steven Jackson (11:57):
OK.
Kari Haley (11:57):
There's probably some works for some huge buildings going up to house people for free because there's a lot of money for that.
Steven Jackson (12:04):
That's right. Of course. And unlimited resources. So.
Kari Haley (12:07):
Yes. Yep. Kitchens, chefs.
Steven Jackson (12:09):
Obviously I'm being very sarcastic, but with that being said again, I mean, I know you talk about your family support, but what keeps you going? I mean, it seems like over time of seeing not only people that really need your help medically, but they are part of sometimes a system that's not necessarily perfect for them. And, then we talk about resources, then we talk about COVID and everything else and now you have to build trust and rapport in two minutes so you can help them.
Kari Haley (12:43):
Yep.
Steven Jackson (12:44):
What keeps you going?
Kari Haley (12:46):
A lot of it is me just kind of trying to flip things around, being how can I... I want to try to do the best that I can for you, but also keeping it in perspective of the whole and just remembering to... You are not thinking about if we're having a conflict about things. You are not trying to be difficult, the situation is difficult. And, just trying to remember that you can only do what 10 with the information that you have and the resources that you have and just being OK and coming to peace. It took me a long time to get there. I think for my career when I was... probably the first two years out, there was so much second guessing so much, "Oh, could I have done this? And could I have done that? Oh, should I have done this? Should I have talked to this person?"
Kari Haley (13:34):
And, I think now that I'm at least a couple more years out into my career, I feel a little bit more settled and coming to peace with that, "Hey, this is all we had. This is all the information we had. We talked to all the people we could and that we could think of at the time. So we really, truly tried our best." And, sometimes it still doesn't work out and just being at peace with that.
Steven Jackson (13:55):
Well, I just want to personally say thank you and your colleagues for what you do. You went into emergency medicine for a reason. I did not for a reason, but seriously, thank you for just showing up. I mean, most of our folks that we serve, they just need somebody present to show up and not give up on them and I love what you said. You said that maybe this person isn't being difficult, but the situation is difficult. And, I just think that takes maturity and it takes insight to really recognize that I got a job to do.
Steven Jackson (14:27):
And, as tough as this is, it might be beneficial for me to maybe not take a lot of this personally, so that I can get to why I'm actually wearing this white coat to help and that's appreciated. And, I know our clients appreciate that as well. Interesting. OK. So, we've launched.
Kari Haley (14:47):
Yes.
Steven Jackson (14:47):
And you know, I'll come back to some more riveting thought provoking questions in a minute, but you know, we've launched as of January 3rd and we've had overwhelming support. What do you want to accomplish with our podcast? What do you want to do?
Kari Haley (15:03):
I've thought about that a lot. And for me, I really want to, I personally love, I have decided that I love hearing people's stories. It's so cool to hear where people come from. How much knowledge they have, that they don't necessarily always get to share in their everyday life. And, we can all learn from each other. So, I really think that I hope that this podcast really acts as a platform that we can and provide to let people tell their stories and to let them partake their knowledge to anyone who wants to listen to it. Because, I think that only helps us grow as humans and as a society. And, I think that's one way to at least create some movement. And I'm hoping ultimately that, allowing people to have a platform to give their stories, people start making connections with each other and that will turn into action.
Steven Jackson (15:59):
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. So if I were to... All right, I'm going to set up a fill in the blank.
Kari Haley (16:09):
Yes.
Steven Jackson (16:09):
All right, here we go. Kari Haley is?
Kari Haley (16:14):
A mom.
Steven Jackson (16:16):
Wow. Tell me more about that.
Kari Haley (16:19):
Being a mom is probably the best thing ever, and that is goes above and beyond my career, my love of medicine and shapes a lot of why I do things, because I want to create a world where my kids will have more opportunities will not have to face any sort of racism or at least be able to given the tools to be able to handle it or be able to be leaders in it. And, that's why I do a lot of the things that I do.
Steven Jackson (16:51):
Well, I know right off the bat that your kids are in good hands and I'm privileged to be your partner in this work, so much work to be done, but really, really happy to, be sharing this space with you. So, do you have any hidden talents that our audience needs to know about? What do you think?
Kari Haley (17:12):
Well, I mean, I think by one hidden physical challenges that I can wiggle my ears. I am one of those people that has control of their ear muscles.
Steven Jackson (17:21):
Oh, wow.
Kari Haley (17:22):
And, so I can wiggle my ears.
Steven Jackson (17:23):
OK.
Kari Haley (17:26):
I remember when I was younger and I was doing it and I didn't realize not everyone could do that. So that was, I was like, "Oh, cool. I have something different."
Steven Jackson (17:34):
I cannot let the record show, I cannot wiggle my ears.
Kari Haley (17:40):
I used to play piano. I don't know if I would be considered a good piano player, especially anymore. But, when I was younger, I was a decent piano player. I actually was thinking about majoring in music performance when I entered college. But, then advice was solicited and there was other thoughts about maybe letting that be your side gig and hobby.
Steven Jackson (18:01):
Well, we have a nice piano in Regions auditorium. So, whenever you're ready, we're ready.
Kari Haley (18:09):
We'll play some "Chopsticks." Yeah.
Steven Jackson (18:11):
I can play "Chopsticks." There we go. There we go. In the summer, where will we find you and the family?
Kari Haley (18:18):
Probably at our house, because we're homebodies. We have turned into extreme homebodies over this COVID pandemic. We already were, but it has gone to extremes, but we enjoy, we'll probably be outside working on the yard. Kids will be swimming in a pool.
Steven Jackson (18:35):
That sounds peaceful. Just let me know the time and the place.
Kari Haley (18:38):
Yeah. You and the kids come on over anytime.
Steven Jackson (18:39):
We'll be there. So, you mentioned as a ER doc especially in the current climate that sometimes you see people that just aren't their best selves. And, one of the reasons why we have the podcast amongst the many reasons is that we want to be a voice and we want to counter things like racism and sexism and every other ism that's out there. So, we can be inclusive and really grow as a people, as a society, tell us about a time where you've experienced racism or sexism or discrimination in general?
Kari Haley (19:21):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). In medicine I've found that for me, at least I experience much more sexism than I do racism.
Steven Jackson (19:29):
Hmm.
Kari Haley (19:29):
There's been a lot of assumptions in terms of, especially I had my first kid in medical school. So, as a young mom in medicine with kids, there's been so many assumptions made of, "Oh, you're not going to work full time" or, "Oh, you're going to just quit" or even down to, "I haven't seen a doctor yet" when I've been in the room four times and introduced myself as Dr. Haley.
Steven Jackson (19:51):
Oh, wow.
Kari Haley (19:52):
Multiple times and people... There's still that connection that I'm their doctor. And, I think that a lot of that comes more from my sex rather than my race. Racism has come up a few times. I've worked out in some more community hospitals where there's not as many non-white people that they get to see.
Kari Haley (20:11):
And usually it comes up more subtly, not nothing people when we talk about the microaggressions. It's probably more microaggressions, you know? I mean like, "Oh, do you like this one Chinese food?" Or like, "I know someone who can use chopsticks." Just things... I think they're trying to relate, but it's just still like we don't need to say that right now. We don't need to that conversation right now. It's fine. That's cool. I'm glad you know someone who can use chopsticks. But yes, the sexism definitely comes up quite a bit. And, even from times where they'll pre put in orders and there'll be a male colleague next to me and they'll assume they're the doc on, rather than myself, sometimes you have to be like, "No, I'm actually, I'm the doctor. I'm the staff doctor actually." It can be a little bit more challenging on that side.
Steven Jackson (21:02):
I see. We had Dr. Benji Mathews on for one of our episodes and he talked about microaggressions. He talked about being, not a bystander, but an up stander. Is it difficult for you personally to speak up and speak out when you see things like that or experience things like that?
Kari Haley (21:21):
It used to be. It definitely used to be. I avoid conflict like the plague. So, it's not something that if it, especially when it seems like a small transgression, one of the microaggressions that it would seem like, "Oh, is it really worth doing a thing about this?" I used to really in my past to be like, "No, it's not worth it." And in some situations, it's not like if we have a mental health emergency and there's name calling going, and it's just not worth creating more conflict in that situation.
Steven Jackson (21:52):
Sure.
Kari Haley (21:52):
But, then there are situations where there's not any. It's not an escalation of anything and someone just makes a comment, you'll just be like, "Now I'll say something." I'll say "That's not appropriate right now." Or, "I am your doctor." Being assertive and "I am your doctor. I am your physician. I am taking care of you." I have been much better about that in the last few years.
Steven Jackson (22:16):
That's good. And now you're going to get a lot of practice as a podcast host, too.
Kari Haley (22:20):
Yes, I know.
Steven Jackson (22:22):
In case you were wondering. That's awesome. What is, would you say, one of your biggest accomplishments in your opinion, in life?
Kari Haley (22:31):
In life? I mean kind of probably going back to being a mom.
Steven Jackson (22:33):
Yeah.
Kari Haley (22:33):
Honestly. I mean, I think back on it and I was crazy, I was 20. I can't even remember, 23 I think when I got pregnant with my child in second year of medical school. That was a poor choice. I don't know why that was something that I decided I thought was a good idea, but it worked out now. I have an older child that can help me with my younger ones.
Steven Jackson (23:03):
There you go.
Kari Haley (23:05):
I mean, that was huge accomplishment to get through medical school with my first child and then to have my second child during residency. So, being a pregnant intern and having her, my daughter during my second year and then continuing and finishing residency without significant delays, still continuing. I was able to do a fellowship and get a job that I love now all while raising a family and my kids are not, hopefully not horrible human beings on the output. I think they're actually really cool kids, really awesome kids. So, that was all I wanted and asked for.
Steven Jackson (23:44):
Well, they play "Soccer Cars ("Rocket League"; Dr. Haley's kids call it "Soccer Cars")" and other video games, so they have to be cool.
Kari Haley (23:48):
They are super-into "Soccer Cars."
Steven Jackson (23:51):
Speaking of success, I wanted to ask you this before we wrap up a successful podcast, looks like what or a successful podcast would accomplish what?
Kari Haley (24:04):
I think a successful podcast will bring new ideas to listeners who are on the edge. So, people who are interested are dabbling, but not quite there yet to bring them that information so that hopefully they will be inspired, continue those types of conversations in their own lives. And, maybe instead of just becoming a dabbler, just like dive right back, dive right in and really get into the thick of it. That's what I think a good podcast will do.
Steven Jackson (24:36):
That's awesome. Well, on behalf of our listeners, I have truly been just inspired and just, I don't know, just excited just to be talking to you, getting to know you a little bit more and for you guys to know the purpose of this is simply to get to know us and to know who you're actually tuning into. We are humans and we are moms and we are committed not only to being the best doctors we can, but being the best humans we can. So, we just thank you guys and Dr. Haley, thank you for being my partner and onward and upward.
Kari Haley (25:15):
Yes, it is my pleasure. And, I look forward to having our listeners be able to get to know you a little bit more in the next episode.
Steven Jackson (25:23):
Uh-oh. We'll see. See you.
Steven Jackson (25:28):
"Off the Charts" is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley (25:31):
It is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy with creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson (25:38):
Production service is provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley (25:41):
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.