In this special episode of Off the Charts, we get to know co-host Steven Jackson, MD, a physical medicine and rehabilitation physician, and the medical director of patient experience at Regions Hospital. Dr. Jackson shares stories about growing up in Chicago, his desire to help people and how he always knew that he wanted to be a doctor.
In this special episode of Off the Charts, we get to know co-host Steven Jackson, MD, a physical medicine and rehabilitation physician, and the medical director of patient experience at Regions Hospital.
Dr. Jackson shares stories about growing up in Chicago, his desire to help people and how he always knew that he wanted to be a doctor.
Host: Kari Haley, MD
Guest: Steven Jackson, MD
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
Got an idea? Have thoughts to share? We want to hear from you. Email us at offthecharts@healthpartners.com.
Kari Haley (00:01):
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson (00:04):
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley (00:07):
Together, we're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson (00:10):
Inviting voices for change without the cue cards.
Kari Haley (00:14):
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson (00:16):
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson.
Both, together (00:19):
And this is "Off the Charts."
Kari Haley (00:30):
On today's episode, we have the extreme pleasure and privilege to be talking with my lovely co-host, Dr. Steve Jackson. I am so excited to be with you, and to be able to learn more about you and have our listeners kind of get to hear your story and while you're here, so, I guess, with that, starting off with your story, let's hear more about this Chicago, this rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson (00:56):
Good-old Chicago. So yeah, first of all, I haven't been called "lovely" in a long time, so thank you for that.
Kari Haley (01:03):
Of course.
Steven Jackson (01:04):
Thank you. So, grew up in the inner city of South Side Chicago, it was basically just me and my mom and yeah, she did her thing, she took good care of me and she always told me that I can do anything I put my mind to and her biggest thing was "always do your best,' and if your best was a C+, which it wasn't, but if it was, "then fine, we'll get you a tutor," but whatever the case was, "always do your best." And that really stuck with me, so, again, grew up in the inner-city Chicago and had a lot of cousins so I never really had that sibling loneliness and, you know, I don't know. I guess I liked school.
Kari Haley (01:56):
You enjoyed school so much.
Steven Jackson (01:58):
I did, I did, so yeah.
Kari Haley (02:00):
What kind of school did you go to? Was it public school or did you go to any other private school or anything?
Steven Jackson (02:07):
Yeah, that's a good question. So I went to a public school. My mom had to work and so what she would do every morning, she would drop me off at my cousins' house and then I would go to the school kind of in their neighborhood, so according to the school, my address was where they live, we had to kind of finagle things a little bit, play the system so I can go to that school. And right around fifth grade, I started making some questionable choices, so to speak, and getting into things that probably would've led to problems and issues.
Steven Jackson (02:42):
And so my mom had the foresight to have me transfer to a math and science academy, sort of in historic Hyde Park of Chicago, and that kind of changed my trajectory, I think, because there was Culver Academies, which is where I ended up going for high school, they would come to the school and talk to the students about boarding school and different opportunities to go away and my mom has this thing where she says that "we decide for you to go away to school." "No, Mom. You sent me away to school."
Steven Jackson (03:16):
But I mean, it really... It opened up doors for me to be exposed to something more than just Chicago, and also I think it just really opened up my personal potential to achieve, at least in the areas of academics, and fulfill my doctor dream, so to speak, so...
Kari Haley (03:37):
Did you always know you wanted to be a doctor? Or was that something that kind of developed as you were growing up?
Steven Jackson (03:43):
Honestly, I've always known. I don't think there was any one moment. I don't have a story about a sick family member or I watched a doctor show like "Quincy," which is old school, maybe even before your time, Dr. Haley, but no, I just... I knew I wanted to help people, you know? I remember, if there was any sort of life influence, my mom was a HUC (health unit coordinator), the equivalent of a HUC at Michael Reese Hospital back in the day. R.I.P. Michael Reese, they're no longer around, but so she was in the hospital a lot and when I would be at work with her, I would notice she would stop and talk to everybody, and it's like, now I'm a kid, kids are always hungry so I was always hungry. I was like, "Mom, can we go?" And she'd look at me and she'd give me that look like, "Don't interrupt me anymore." I was like, "Yes, ma'am."
Steven Jackson (04:43):
But she would kind of stop and talk to everybody. I was like, "Mom, you talk to everybody, you know everybody, da da da." And now I find myself doing the same thing. I'll be on the phone with my wife walking down the hallway and she's like, "Honey, call me back when you can talk", because every five seconds, "Hey. Hey, man. How you doing? Hey, da da da." She's like, "All right. Just call me back because you're talking to other people other than me."
Steven Jackson (05:08):
So anyway, yeah, that would probably be the biggest thing and I've always known it, like I said, I've always wanted to help people, I just had this compassion to hopefully help other people do better in life, I guess, so yeah.
Kari Haley (05:27):
That's awesome that you knew from such a young age that you wanted to pursue medicine. How about how, now you're this rehab doctor, you are the director of the spinal cord program here at our hospital, Regions, how'd you get there?
Steven Jackson (05:42):
Well, it's interesting because.... so I was a PM&R (physical medicine and rehabilitation) resident and I was in Virginia and I got a call from, I guess, one of the recruiters here, and it's interesting because they called and said, "Yeah, we want to talk to you about a position we have in our PM&R department to help lead the spinal cord program." And by then, I had already known that I wanted to go into spinal cord injury, but I hadn't really told anybody and I hadn't sent out any applications or subscribed to any practice alert or whatever. And so it was almost like it was meant to be, it's like, "Who told you that I wanted to go into spinal cord injury?" I had to check my phone, make sure it wasn't tapped, that kind of thing, but no, I got sort of recruited and I was actually hired about a year and a half before I started, so it just kind of worked out, you know? A big, open door for me to come here and hopefully make a difference, and it's been a good ride so far.
Kari Haley (06:51):
That's awesome. Do you feel like that because the door was kind of opened for you with at least this opportunity, does any of that play into how you view now your work with diversity, equity and inclusion within the organization?
Steven Jackson (07:08):
I do, and I'll tell you why. I came here, I was hired to help lead the spinal cord program and to be a good colleague, take care of patients, etc. And being a podcast co-host and being one of the leaders of our DE&I (diversity, equity and inclusion) work here in the organization, that was not a plan, at least it wasn't my plan, but the way that it opened and the opportunities, how they've kind of presented themselves, leads me to believe that this was meant, and just like I got recruited and don't even know how I got recruited to come to HealthPartners, these opportunities that have opened up themselves, I think this is what's supposed to happen, and one of the key things for me, I feel like things that are supposed to happen, they're not always a struggle, like this, the way we kind of got together, and we can talk about that in a minute, it was just organic. I mean, it was like, "This is supposed to happen. This podcast is supposed to happen."
Steven Jackson (08:12):
And I learned that it's not just getting behind a mic and talking, there's a lot that happens behind closed doors. Thank you, production team and Jimmy Bellamy and everybody else out there, but there's a lot that goes on behind closed doors, but the point being, this was meant to be, and I'm just... I'm happy to be on the ride.
Kari Haley (08:31):
With your ride, is there things that you want to really instill from your own values, from your own life, your experiences, within how we navigate this new space that we're kind of creating within our organization and the material that we're putting out, the messages that we're giving to our communities?
Steven Jackson (08:54):
I think something that you can't overstate is we're all human, and I think, when you get into diversity, equity and inclusion work, you learn a lot of terms and you read information that's really valuable and powerful, but I think a lot of the work that we do comes down to the fact that we are human and we all need a shot at being successful, whether it's successful in life, successful in being healthy, successful in taking care of ourselves and our families, and so what drives me is a message of hope. "Hey, maybe you had a a tough go at it in the early part of your life, or maybe you were born with two 2s and not two aces or two kings, I mean, depending on how you were raised, where you come from."
Steven Jackson (09:49):
But I think what drives me is the fact that I want to be able to help folks by sharing with them, "You can be successful." And things like discrimination and race and gender and all the other demographic categories, they don't have to be a limitation, because I think knowledge is power, education is power, and I think there is strength in numbers, so us educating each other, joining together and not being afraid to tackle that maybe in the past has been untackleable, if that's a word, I think is what's going to help us to be successful. I'd love to share a story. Can I share a story?
Kari Haley (10:30):
Oh. Yes, please do.
Steven Jackson (10:31):
All right, so my first... Probably not my first, because one...
Steven Jackson (10:37):
OK, one of my earliest memories of racism and discrimination happened back when I was a kid, and it's actually a funny story. I hope my mom doesn't mind me telling this story, but there was a new shopping center that opened up in a neighborhood that wasn't my neighborhood, OK? But it was a nice shopping center. This is kind of like maybe the northern part of Chicago, so to speak. And my mom was going for a parking spot and there was another car going for the parking spot where my mom, apparently she got there faster and this gentleman, he was not happy about it, so he eventually parked and in passing, now, we're in the parking lot and he's kind of walking past me and my mom, my grandmother was in the car as well. And he turned around, he said, "Go to your own neighborhood."
Steven Jackson (11:31):
And the reason I'm laughing, because I'm remembering my mom's face and my mom reached for her purse because she had a weapon. Can we say this on the air? Is that OK? And not a firearm or anything like that, but she had something. And man, to see this guy, this guy did a slow jog into the store, like, "Nope, I don't want any piece of this." It was hilarious, but it stands out. I mean, this happened a long time ago. We're talking, I don't know, '80s. Easily in the '80s. And that was kind of like my first real understanding that, "Hey, not only am I different", which I knew I was different, meaning I'm African American and there are other people that aren't African American, "but I'm viewed as different."
Steven Jackson (12:20):
My mom would tell me that "sometimes, people will not like you for how you look." And as a kid, I remember that being such a hurtful realization, you know? Because I'm a heart. I was a heart kind of kid and I'm a heart kind of adult, so when you hear that, it just kind of hurts you, like, "They won't like me because I'm black? Why is that? I didn't do anything to them." And, but obviously, as you grow up, you understand how it is out here.
Steven Jackson (12:47):
And then another story that stands out to me was my first college advising session in college. If you want to find out where I went, check the website, but I won't put my college on blast, but I sat down with my college advisor, our first and last meeting and you'll understand why in a minute and I told him, "Yeah, I want to be a physician or I want to go to medical school and I want to major in chemistry." And he kind of paused and I was like, I'm thinking in my head, "Did he hear what I said?" And so then he finally replied and said, "Chemistry. OK. Do you think that'll be a reach for you?"
Steven Jackson (13:28):
Now, I'm a straight-A student. There are probably two, maybe three, classes in all of high school that I didn't get an A in. Things changed in college. That's another story. But with that being said, he said, "I think that might be a reach for you. What do you think?" I was like, "Well, I want to major in chemistry." And then he paused again. I'm like, "OK, maybe he didn't quite understand me." And then he said, "Well, you know we have an African American studies department here." I was like, "He did not just say that out loud, did he?"
Steven Jackson (13:58):
So I was like, "OK, well, thank you very much." And I promptly walked out and I told my mom, the same mom that I talked about before and she said, "Honey, do you want me to come up there?" I was like, "Mom, no, no, I got it. I got it." You know? Because she was willing to drive and get in the car and drive on up to the school. But poetic justice would have it, on graduation day, guess who handed me my diploma in biochemistry? Yes, it was that advisor and chemistry professor that handed me my diploma, so who says God doesn't have a sense of humor? Anyway.
Kari Haley (14:35):
No, that's... I mean, they're both kind of unfortunate stories, but really help, I feel like, shape where you are and who you are now and continues... Like, for me, it seems like, oh, you have always been that person who is like, you're ready to fight for the little guy and just really just keep it real like you do.
Steven Jackson (14:58):
You know, when we first decided to pursue getting this podcast up and going, one of my personal reasons, like you say, being a voice for the little guy because I was the little guy, and I'm not saying I'm the big guy now and I've arrived or anything like that, but I know how it feels personally to have your voice not be as valuable as it should be, and there are a lot of people out there today that are still in that position, and I feel like with any influence we might have, or even just the opportunity and the willingness to put ourselves out there to talk about things that might be uncomfortable, I think we're breaking barriers and I just think we're doing our part because obviously we're not the only podcast and we're not the only people out here that are on the DE&I frontline trying to make things better, but I feel like this is another piece of the puzzle that can help things be just a little bit better for us all, so just really happy to be partner with you.
Kari Haley (16:03):
Yeah. It's kind of speaking, going back to kind of our partnership here, I mean, I know, for me, when we first kind of got together, it was more of a shock because I honestly... Because, like, for you, you have... In the medical world, people have titles and it's a thing and so you had titles, you're like... I'm like, "Wow, this... You're coming." I was a little nervous, like, "Oh, this director guy, this person, this big wig, he knows people is coming and wants to talk to me about doing a podcast and stuff." But then I met you and I was like, "Oh, we're..." So much of what you're saying, I think this is why it works. We have a lot of similar things that we're thinking in our goals and everything, but let's talk a little bit, like what made you grab onto this podcast idea?
Steven Jackson (16:51):
After George Floyd was murdered back in May of 2020, which, man, that seems like a long time ago. My gosh.
Kari Haley (16:58):
Oh, man. It does.
Steven Jackson (16:59):
We had, as an organization, we had a series of listening sessions and we had, I think, I want to say we had four and then we've had another series of listening sessions maybe a year later or so to kind of commemorate what had happened and also to kind of check in as an organization, but after the first set of listening sessions, one of the questions that I had was, "How do we continue the conversation?" I know conversations aren't necessarily actions, so to speak, and a lot of people say, "We can't be only about talk. We got to be about action." I understand that. But still, you want to have a platform and just a safe space to have a conversation about all things related to diversity and inclusion, anti-racism, discrimination, because if you don't talk about it, then who will? If not us, then who? And I think that this, number one, the podcast, it helps to answer that question, "How do we continue the conversation?"
Steven Jackson (18:03):
I think another thing that I'm excited about is not only can we hear and will we hear from people from within the organization, but we have an opportunity to hear from those that we serve in the community. We have opportunities to put businesses on display that are in our community. Opportunities to learn and grow together. And when we were doing this and I, as I said earlier, I realized that it was just more than getting behind a mic and talking, in the preparation piece, it just made me more excited because I'm realizing just how impactful this actually can be, and so I'm just excited. I hope I answered the question. For those that are listening, I kind of ramble. I'm a big talker and I try to... I need my wife here next to me to elbow me in the ribs, she's good at that, so...
Kari Haley (18:58):
No, I think that did answer the question appropriately, so in our many conversations that we've had and kind of our sidebar conversations, I have heard you talk so much about trust, and I would love for you to talk about trust and your thoughts behind it, what you think it means to diversity, equity, anti-racism and what it means both professionally and personally to you.
Steven Jackson (19:31):
Well, I think, first of all, and there are so many quotes about trust. In every interaction, you increase or decrease trust. Trust is earned, not assumed. What's another one that stands out? It's hard to gain or hard to obtain, but easily lost, easily... And you guys are probably all familiar with those kinds of quotes, but trust is, it's a very real thing, it's a very real and important thing, especially when it comes to not only medical care, but also just interactions with people in general.
Steven Jackson (20:12):
When I walk into a room, I walk in with the letters of the alphabet behind my name, I might have a white coat on and all these things, and from my own perspective, I feel like I'm a nice guy with good intentions, I feel like I'm competent and I'm ready to meet your medical needs, but I'm learning, as it relates to trust, that doesn't get you in the trust door because people may not trust you and it might not have anything to do with you personally, it can be a bad experience with health care or just a bad experience in general, it could be based on their bias, it could be based on my own bias, but basically, trust is important because in order for me to get to the outcomes that I think we both want, meaning myself as a care provider as well as the patient/family, then there has to be a degree of "I trust what you're saying, and I trust the treatment plan."
Steven Jackson (21:17):
And I think trust is something as simple as spending time getting to know who you serve, coming to an understanding and being willing to put yourself in the position of the person that you're treating. Those are some of the things that help build trust and similar to peace, you never know how important peace is until you don't have it, you never know how important trust is until you don't have it.
Steven Jackson (21:46):
There are studies that talk about how, if your patient does not trust you, they may not follow the treatment plan, they may go from physician to physician or clinic to clinic. They may just not buy into anything you have to say because that trust piece. So my message to care providers and also non-clinical people in general, because the concept of trust transcends the medical field, understand that building that trust and spending that time to build trust is going to really be a long-term benefit as opposed to something that we just talk about or lecture about. So that's just a little. I can talk about trust all day.
Kari Haley (22:27):
And honestly, I think it ties into your "just human" piece, too, just trusting each other as humans and that's, I think, really a huge piece of what I've learned from you in our many conversations like I mentioned before, but that has definitely made an impact on me and how I think about things and practice, so I really appreciate that, getting to learn from my co-host and getting to learn from our guests.
Steven Jackson (22:53):
Absolutely.
Kari Haley (22:53):
This is just a great platform and I just feel like my brain is exploding half the time.
Steven Jackson (22:58):
Yeah, it's cool. We have a good thing going on, I think.
Kari Haley (23:01):
So I have one last question to wrap things up.
Steven Jackson (23:04):
OK.
Kari Haley (23:04):
I know you're a music guy.
Steven Jackson (23:05):
Bonus question. Here we go.
Kari Haley (23:06):
Bonus question. Music guy. Name a song that speaks most to the way you approach your life in terms of this movement for anti-racism, diversity and equity, and why does this song speak to you?
Steven Jackson (23:26):
If I wasn't prepared and meaning if I didn't have an answer and by the way, TV land or radio land, I did not know this question was coming, but I feel like if I didn't have an answer, this is probably the hardest question I've ever heard and I'll talk to you afterwards. No.
Steven Jackson (23:45):
There was a song that's by Donny Hathaway called "Someday We'll All Be Free." And No. 1, it's just a nice song, like musically, it's a beautiful song. Donny Hathaway is probably one of my favorite singers of all time, him and Stevie Wonder, but it's also hopeful. It's hopeful. I think, when we think about our DE&I work, we realize that there is work to do, there's a lot of work to do in so many different areas and just when you think you're moving the needle, then you turn on the news or you go to work and you experience something that's like, "Yeah, we got a lot of work to do so there's a lot of reasons to wake up out of the bed and come on in and get to work because there's a lot of work to be done."
Steven Jackson (24:31):
But the song itself, it just reminds me that I believe one day we'll all be free, and it gives me hope. People call me an optimist. I don't know if I'm an optimist, per se, I just feel like... Well, maybe I am an optimist, but I'm not easily discouraged. I'm not, because I've been through too much in my own life and I've overcome so many odds that who am I to just easily doubt that we can make it through this pandemic or make some impact in his DE&I work? And so it's going to take a lot to put me down because it's like I've seen too much and experienced too much to be easily thrown off. But yeah, so this is not a plug to Donny Hathaway or for Donny Hathaway, but if you ever hear the song, you'll see what I'm saying. Someday we'll all be free. So yeah.
Kari Haley (25:27):
I love it.
Steven Jackson (25:27):
I believe it.
Kari Haley (25:30):
Well, again, I am privileged to have you as a partner in this project and I hope our listeners are able to now know a little bit more about each of us after these episodes.
Steven Jackson (25:41):
"Off the Charts" is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley (25:44):
It is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy, with creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers, and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson (25:51):
Production services provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley (25:54):
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.