Allyship is showing solidarity with members of a marginalized or mistreated group to which one doesn’t belong. Kelly Fang, senior on-site well-being program manager and health coach, shares her allyship story that began when her child wanted to dress more masculine. She talks about what allyship is and isn’t, struggling with the concept of “living a double life,” and how to be a resource for others.
Allyship is showing solidarity with members of a marginalized or mistreated group to which one doesn’t belong. Kelly Fang, senior on-site well-being program manager and health coach, shares her allyship story that began when her child wanted to dress more masculine. She talks about what allyship is and isn’t, struggling with the concept of “living a double life,” and how to be a resource for others.
Hosts: Kari Haley, MD, and Steven Jackson, MD
Guest: Kelly Fang
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
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Kari Haley:
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson:
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley:
Together, we're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson:
Inviting voices for change without the cue cards.
Kari Haley:
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson:
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson.
Kari Haley:
And this is "Off the Charts."
Steven Jackson:
Well, welcome to our show. Again, very appreciative of our listeners, and thank you guys for your support. Today, we're just in for a treat. On this episode, we have Kelly Fang, who happens to be a senior on-site well-being program manager and health coach here for HealthPartners stationed at Macalester College. Welcome.
Kelly Fang:
Thank you.
Steven Jackson:
Today, we're going to be having a great conversation about allyship and what that means and how can we be supportive and things like that. Kelly, welcome.
Kelly Fang:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah, absolutely. Just getting right into it, tell us, I guess, your journey and your passion for allyship.
Kelly Fang:
Sure. Well, mine started when my child was around 3 or 4 years old. Well, first, I guess I can say I was always an ally but more in the background. I always supported a lot of causes, but it was my child who kind of motivated me to get more involved. Around three or four, they started wanting to dress more masculinely. They were assigned a female at birth, but started to dress more masculinely or request that. At first, it was all Spider-Man shirts. We were like, "Yeah, go. No-
Kari Haley:
Everyone loves Spider-Man, right?
Kelly Fang:
We were like, "No problem. Let's do it." But it became pretty clear that we're what, six, seven years into it now. They're almost 10. It was not just a phase or it is not just a phase, and it became more clear pretty quickly that this was... They were pretty persistent about it, insistent, and it was consistent. I think my first step was to really just educate myself about LGBTQ issues. Again, I was always a supporter but more on the sidelines, so I needed to really step up and kind of learn more about the issues that are impacting that community that could impact my own child. That was the first step, going to my local library and getting as many books as I could and reading as much as I could. And then, I would say the second step was reaching out for some guidance a little bit. We got a counselor and we had an initial meeting with somebody when it was more of an emergency situation like, "They're starting kindergarten. What do I do," that kind of thing. But then we did get on a waiting list and have a great counselor now.
And then, a couple of years ago, it was great. I've educated myself. I'm supporting them as best I can. I kind of feel like I want to do more and I'm ready to do more, so that was where I decided to join our LGBTQ+ CRG, or colleague resource group, at HealthPartners. We got that started a couple of years ago. I think we've only been working together for two years or so, and I had a few reasons for wanting to join that group. One was finding a bit more community. My family just didn't have a lot of friends in the LGBTQ community and colleagues I didn't know of, so I wanted to get more relationships. It's one thing to read about the issues. It's another thing to put faces and names to the people that those issues impact. So, I really wanted to become a part of that community in a way, but as an ally.
And then, the other reason for joining was perhaps becoming a resource for other parents. I assumed I probably wasn't the only parent at HealthPartners dealing with these issues. Perhaps somebody would find their way to our CRG and want some support. We do have a peer support network that the CRG has started, so that's a great resource to check out. I think the third reason was just, again, getting more involved, putting my talk into action.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Kari Haley:
It's such an impactful story I feel like because especially as you're navigating it first as a mom, and then transitioning into more being a resource and that bigger picture of an ally. I kind of want to go back because something that you said really struck me when you were first talking about how you felt like you were ready to take that next step because I feel like it's really important maybe to maybe talk a little bit about how being an ally also probably means taking care of yourself first, making sure you're ready as a person to be able to take on more, because I think it would be really easy to be that just playing in the background or be a little bit more timid when you're not ready. What kind of things helped you get there, helped you get ready?
Kelly Fang:
Well, I think for me, it was being conscious about not kind of jumping on the bandwagon, so to speak. It wasn't like, "OK, woo-hoo, let's put out a pride flag and let's go to the parade." I wanted to be very thoughtful about it and give it time to say, "We're still very new in this journey and I don't know where this is going, so I kind of needed to just honestly settle in and get more comfortable." It's one thing, again, to watch from the sidelines. It's another thing to be living it with your child. It can be difficult at times, so I needed to get comfortable, and it took me a little while to get there. And then, once I did, it was like, "All right, I'm ready to challenge myself a bit."
Kari Haley:
I think that's one thing that I feel like, as a person hearing your story, that really stands out to me because I feel like it's so easy to just get caught up in the headwinds a little bit and feel like you're doing the right thing and feel like you're being a good ally, but that's not everyone's path. It could be someone's really successful path because that is who they are, and they are really good at that, but there's some people out there who might not be ready for that. But it gives a lot of insight to be like, "It's OK to take that time for yourself in order to get yourself to a spot where you feel like you're able to take on more." That's OK. That is still being an ally. And I think that's really important for people to hear because I think sometimes you could get stuck in that, "Well, I'm not doing enough," or, "I'm being selfish," or something. When really you do need to take that time to be able to be an advocate for somebody else. You have to still be OK with it within yourself.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. I would imagine. Although, we probably get into even defining what an ally is versus what an ally is not, but even in those definitions that have been accepted and established, there still has to be, I would imagine, a degree of customization for you and your family. How does that look in your family? How does the support that you need to give to your child looks for you, as opposed to what the general definition of it is? Did you find that portion of it tough? In other words, did you feel pressure to do it right as opposed to doing it as needed by your child?
Kelly Fang:
I feel like I only felt pressure to make sure I'm doing it right when I'm showing up and representing our organization. I just wanted to make sure I was... I remember I reached out to the CRG and I was like, "Is it OK if I join? I'm not..." And they were like, "Yes, of course." I was like, "OK, because here's the situation. I really do want to make it a better place for our colleagues. I wanted to make it a more inclusive place for our colleagues, and eventually my kid is going to grow up and become part of this workforce, and I just want to help change the direction and be more..." I trusted my good intentions. I knew I had good intentions, but I was nervous reaching out and wanted to make sure that they knew I was doing it for the right reasons. Yeah. That's part of allyship is you do have to kind of check yourself and make sure you're not you're not centering yourself. The work you're doing is about centering and improving the lives of those that you're fighting for.
Steven Jackson:
What is it not? I know you kind of alluded to it, but for those that don't know what is allyship not, so to speak?
Kelly Fang:
Well, I kind of think more to what I said, just not centering yourself too much, making sure that you're seeking the advice of the community you're trying to serve or that you're representing them appropriately and asking permission. I mean, at least with my child, it's asking permission, "Hey, can we do this," or, "What do you think of this?"
Steven Jackson:
So, it's almost like the... You kind of said it. Again, I'm going to restate it, but it's kind of like you take the focus off of yourself and it becomes more of almost like a service like, "How can we accommodate? How can we help? Almost give us some cues in which to help you almost." OK. Yeah.
I think that's important for people to know because I think sometimes people do make allyship about themselves. "Well, this is how I want to help," or, "This is how I'm going to help." And it's like, "Well, they might not need the type of help that you're trying to provide, so stop for a second and educate yourself and also listen, which is probably equally as important than anything else is listening."
Kelly Fang:
Exactly.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Kelly Fang:
Well, as far as allyship, too, if we're talking about how to get involved, I would say there's different ways to start. I would say at the beginning level, the easiest way to start is with your vote. Right? Just be a voter. If you care about an issue, kind of put your vote where you stand. The next way would be to be more of an upstander. If you see things happening, then intervene, speak up. Don't allow that kind of language or behavior to exist in your space. Right?
I would say the third thing would be volunteer. That's another easy way to get involved and show up for people and help them, again, in centering around the issues that are important to them. And then, if you're willing to challenge yourself a little bit, be more of an organizer, volunteer, or then an organizer. I joined a part of the LGBTQ CRG to be a bit more of an organizer to help make things happen. And then, to be a disruptor would be sort of the next level. It's when you're really willing to stick your neck out and question the status quo, the way things are done, or really being willing to stand up for people.
Kari Haley:
What would you say to parents who maybe were like yourself at the beginning of your journey, maybe a little afraid, maybe a little uncertain? What kind of advice, looking back, would you wish that you had for yourself or would give parents in a similar situation?
Kelly Fang:
I would say support is key, both from family, friends or neighbors, and a counselor. Those three things really helped. I would say another side thing was I found an online support group through Gender Spectrum is a great organization I would look into if you're looking for support. I joined sort of an online parent support group there, and it was very clear to me pretty quickly when all these other 20, 30 other parents logged onto this support group call, and I was like, "OK, I'm not alone. This is great." So, finding a support group if you need to, an online one, but I was lucky enough to have very supportive family from the start.
I remember I called them the night before we were going to cut my child's hair that they had been requesting for a long time, but I was really hesitant and I was just like, "Ah." I wanted to affirm them as much as I can, yet I just knew that this was sort of a turning point because they were already dressing masculinely, that I knew if we cut their hair, it would change how the world saw them. So, I knew that was a big step, even though they didn't think it was big. But I remember calling my parents and just being like, "Am I doing the right thing? Should we do this? I'm really kind of scared to do it." And they were like, "Yes, we don't care. We're going to love them no matter what, even if they didn't have hair." That just reassured was very helpful for me when I was in a, I don't know, just really emotional moment to hear them without even questions and say, "It doesn't matter." That really helped.
Kari Haley:
That's awesome, and I think being an ally also means having your own allies too a little bit.
Kelly Fang:
Yes. That's it. The support is really just having your own allies when you're struggling. Yeah.
Kari Haley:
Because you're always going to have those highs and lows with those times where you're like, "I'm ready to face the world and I'm ready to help support people and be that scaffolding to help hold other people up." But then there's going to be times where you're feeling down or you're needing someone to hold you up. So, it's great to have a community and people in your life that will help hold you up so you can continue to hold the other people up too.
Kelly Fang:
Exactly. Yeah. Having their support definitely helps me be more confident, and going forward, if I didn't, it would be... So, for those that I guess don't have that family support, it's really important then that you do seek that out, whether it's through your own counselor or a support group or something because I don't think I'd be able to continue to... Because I don't want to put all that stress on my child, right?
Steven Jackson:
Mm-hmm.
Kelly Fang:
So, I think that's why it's key for you to have maybe your own source of support, so that I'm not putting that stress on them and they're not seeing that these issues are impacting me. Again, not centering yourself, right?
Steven Jackson:
True.
Kari Haley:
Yes.
Kelly Fang:
Putting it... Creating some separation there.
Steven Jackson:
I want to say thank you for being vulnerable. I mean, we're talking about allyship but through a personal lens, and we take that seriously, so thank you for being vulnerable in sharing these portions of your story and the story of your child as well. It sounds like the journey is ongoing.
Kelly Fang:
Yes.
Steven Jackson:
And I guess from a personal perspective, is there any fear or potential fear that you see maybe in, I don't know, the next stage or the next step or the next couple of years? From a personal perspective, what are you foreseeing?
Kelly Fang:
Absolutely. I would say my journey definitely continues because my child is going to enter puberty, and I have a lot of fear about that because in certain spaces, their friends don't know that they were assigned female at birth. Their friends only know them as a boy. And as puberty starts to hit, I am really scared if that will change relationships. I have brought this fear up to them gently. They don't seem to think it's a problem. They're like, "Ah." They're just living life. They're having fun. So, then at that point, I did realize it was more my issue. Again, when I realized it's not their issue, this is clearly my issue, so I sought out a separate counseling appointment with our counselor to work through that, and it was helpful because she kind of reassured me like, "Yep, they're going to find out at some point, and then you'll be there to support them. Yep, they're probably going to find out at some point." And I was like, "OK."
So, I mean, real talk, it just reassured me that... I guess the part I try to fall back on is that if we are doing good work and trying to create this more inclusive, supportive environment, that hopefully that doesn't have to be a fear for anyone anymore, that when somebody comes out or somebody finds out that somebody is not necessarily what they expected, that it's not a big deal, that they still get invited to the birthday party and they still get invited to go over to a friend's house and go swimming. And I will say, there are plenty of examples now of transgender or gender nonconforming or nonbinary kids that are thriving. A great organization to check out is GenderCool. It's a really great website to check out because they highlight a lot of fantastic kids that are ambassadors, and is clearly thriving in who they are.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. That's awesome.
Kari Haley:
You mentioned a little bit too about how getting involved in the CRG here was partly that you want to help improve the working environment that your child's going to enter someday. What kind of things do you want to see change or see or be changed in a way that is going to be more inclusive for people like your child or people who don't have the very culturally normative pieces that we have in our current setup in society?
Kelly Fang:
Well, we're getting there. HealthPartners is getting there. I have to say working at Macalester College has been wonderful. It's opened my eyes that they are an incredibly inclusive environment, so a lot of the practices that HealthPartners is just getting going, including pronouns on our badges and email signatures and things like that. That's kind of been the norm at Macalester for the last 10 years. So, we're catching up. We're getting there, so that's like a start. Yeah. Again, not assuming that somebody's name or how they present themselves is consistent with their gender identity. It helps to introduce yourself with your pronouns, and then that opens up the door for the other person to introduce themselves with their pronouns. And then, I know we've done a lot as far as patient care too. We have a specific person on our CRG that works on the patient care side, and I always love it because I get to see the results of their work right away.
When I schedule my child for an appointment, it's like, "What pronouns?" I'm like, "Oh, my God, this is awesome. They're finally asking for their gender identity and their pronouns when I check in for an appointment." Because that's always awkward when they call their name in the lobby and they're looking around, and I'm like, "No, it's us. Yep." Because their name doesn't match their gender expression, so it's helpful, I mean, straight through. And then, just having providers that are more educated about the issues and more supportive and inclusive has been great. We have a great pediatrician too here at HealthPartners.
Steven Jackson:
How has your personal experience affected and/or combined with your professional experience? I mean, you're a health coach and I'm wondering, has it enhanced your practice or has your personal experience enabled you to help those that you coach?
Kelly Fang:
Yeah. I would say maybe the other way around. I think my coaching, because again, Macalester is a very diverse community and inclusive community, that I've coached some transgender or gender nonconforming or members of the LGBTQ community have been my clients. So, getting to know their lives more in depth to getting to see firsthand that they just want what everybody else wants, which is to be happy, be healthy, they're working on walking more and eating better and sleeping more just like all of us. So, getting to know their personal lives better, I think, helped equip me to help my child a little bit better, just seeing them, reminding myself that they're just human like everybody else.
Kari Haley:
Yeah.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Kari Haley:
I think that's kind of a theme that we've had in our podcast, too, is just hearing other people's stories makes a bigger difference than reading the book or reading the paragraph or the latest study. Since as you being an ally with sharing your story, what is your hope that sharing your story will do for someone else or do for maybe someone who's a listener right now who has read the books, has read everything, but hearing your story might be that turning point for them?
Kelly Fang:
I hope that they know that they're not alone, that they can always reach out to get support. I've reached out randomly to different people to just sort of say, "Hey, I'm struggling with an issue right now. Do you have capacity?" I mean, I think that's always nice to ask if the other person has capacity to provide support, but know that you're not alone and just take it slow. It's OK to have conflicting feelings too. There was a lot of grief, I think, at first again, kind of probably after we cut the hair, when it was a significant shift, I think, when it felt like I had lost my little girl. Right?
Kari Haley:
Mm-hmm.
Steven Jackson:
Mm-hmm.
Kelly Fang:
I had given birth to a girl, and I don't see that anymore. It felt like she was gone. Even though over time, obviously she's right there in front of me or they are right there in front of me. Sorry, we go back and forth on pronouns because my child's still gender-fluid. She in some situations and at home, and then he in other situations, so we just go all over the place. Yeah. Just acknowledge that it's OK to have feelings of grief that was hard at first and feeling guilty for having grief. You know what I mean? You have all these-
Kari Haley:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kelly Fang:
Yeah. You have all these mixed emotions at the same time like, "I think I'm sad, but wait, no, I'm not supposed to be sad. I'm supposed to be an ally," or, "I'm supposed to be supporting." It's like, "No, it's OK to be sad for a little while. You'll get back to pushing for change again and supporting them, but at first, it's OK to be sad."
Steven Jackson:
Well, I want to say a big thank you to you. Again, stories are powerful. We talk a lot about how in medicine we're very data-driven and very science-driven, and to some degree, we should be, but it's the stories that highlight the data, that highlight the numbers. And you sharing your story today, it's like the epitome of what we're trying to accomplish on this podcast, and it's give voice to those that either don't have a voice or want to be quiet because they feel like they're alone and they feel like no one will understand. Well, I've been educated and you being transparent the way you have, I'm sure you've really helped a lot of people. This has been great.
Kari Haley:
Thank you so much again for being here, for being brave and sharing your vulnerable feelings about being an ally because it's not easy. It's not easy, but I think it shows that you can be an ally, and there's many ways to be an ally, and it's OK to have your own feelings as well.
Steven Jackson:
That's right. That's right. Yeah. Anything you want to leave with us or leave with parents who might be experiencing what you are and have experienced?
Kelly Fang:
I would say trust your child. Again, this was coming from a 3- or 4-year-old who... I had turned to my husband at some points, and I was like, "Where is this coming?" You know what I mean? This whole concept that we're influencing them. I'm like, "They were three or four doing nothing but going to preschool and watching cartoons. There's no way that they just kind of made this up." So, I think just trust your child that this is how they truly feel like they are meant to be, and that it's their authentic self that's trying to come out, and it's your job as a parent to help them flourish in whatever way that looks like. Loving them unconditionally was always the easy part. It's all this other stuff in parenting that is tough.
Steven Jackson:
I'm sure the day to day. But well, thank you. Thank you. Maybe we'll have you back on in the coming time, to talk about how things are going. Thanks so much.
Kelly Fang:
Thank you.
Steven Jackson:
"Off the Charts" is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley:
That is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy, with creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson:
Production services provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley:
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.