Stepping into work centered on diversity, equity and inclusion can seem overwhelming. But finding your area of passion and the community working in that space helps. Dr. Anthony Williams, a hospitalist at Regions Hospital, shares how blending his lived experiences and love of writing and storytelling with patients’ own lived experiences has improved care and understanding.
Stepping into work centered on diversity, equity and inclusion can seem overwhelming. But finding your area of passion and the community working in that space helps. Dr. Anthony Williams, a hospitalist at Regions Hospital, shares how blending his lived experiences and love of writing and storytelling with patients’ own lived experiences has improved care and understanding.
Hosts: Kari Haley, MD, and Steven Jackson, MD
Guest: Anthony Williams, MD
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
Got an idea? Have thoughts to share? We want to hear from you. Email us at offthecharts@healthpartners.com.
Kari Haley:
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson:
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley:
Together, we're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson:
Inviting voices for change without the cue cards.
Kari Haley:
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson:
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson
Both, together:
And this is Off the Charts.
Steven Jackson:
Welcome to our show, everybody. We are just so excited. First of all, thank you guys for the support and just the shout-outs and just how this podcast has been used. Hopefully for good, not for evil. That's a joke. It's been great. Welcome to season three.
Kari Haley:
Yes, it is good to be back.
Steven Jackson:
Can you believe it? Season three. We launched about a year ago, or more, and we're in season three. We're going to take this show to Hollywood, maybe. We'll see.
So again, thank you guys for your support and we want to keep bringing it, keep bringing great content and today will not be an exception. We have Dr. Anthony Williams with us today. He's going to grace us with his presence and his words of wisdom. He is a med-peds hospitalist for HealthPartners slash Regions Hospital. And, buckle up, because he holds a couple of hats. All right. So he is an associate program director for the med-peds residency, and I told him I might be applying later, so I'll get my application to him soon. And then also he's the associate director for CFAM, which sounds real cool, right? The Center for Art of Medicine. Did I say that right?
Anthony Williams:
Yeah. The Center for the Art of Medicine.
Steven Jackson:
Center for the Art of Medicine. I like that. Say that real fast three times, or something. Welcome, Anthony. Welcome, Dr. Williams.
Anthony Williams:
Thank you. Thank you, Steve. It's really exciting to be here and I'm happy to just sit and chat with you guys because you guys always have interesting perspectives and takes on kind of what's going on, so thanks.
Steven Jackson:
Well, today it's about you. We want to hear your perspective, because today you're going to solve the world's problems.
Kari Haley:
You are in the hot seat.
Steven Jackson:
Hot seat.
Anthony Williams:
Hot seat. All right. All right. Hot seat it is.
Steven Jackson:
Sizzle, sizzle.
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, problems, watch out.
Steven Jackson:
So, who is Dr. Williams?
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, I mean, easy, in a nutshell. So just a little bit about me. I grew up in Texas, so I am a southern boy. I like southern stuff like warmth and big breakfasts and football. And so grew up most of my life in Texas, went to undergrad and actually did chemical engineering as a undergraduate student at the University of Oklahoma.
Steven Jackson:
Woo.
Anthony Williams:
And actually graduated and worked for a few years as an engineer.
Steven Jackson:
Jalen Hurts, sorry.
Anthony Williams:
I will cite the other Heisman-winning quarterbacks as well that Oklahoma's produced, but that would be a detour.
Steven Jackson:
There you go.
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, so plenty of time in Oklahoma, about seven years, and then meandered on north to Minnesota for medical school, and have been in medical school and then residency, and then obviously stayed here for my big boy job as an attendant. And been out of residency for about four or five years, and that's where I find myself now.
Kari Haley:
Adulting.
Anthony Williams:
Adulting, yeah. Trying to adult. Yeah, yeah. Partial adulting, I would say.
Kari Haley:
So tell us a little bit about how you have incorporated this whole art of medicine, but also the race and art of medicine into your practice.
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, no, that's been an exciting and really unforeseen journey. And so I would say that, I have, and a lot of people have, the lived experience and I think that our own lived experiences, and for most of my life, I didn't really think about how I would portray that or talk about it or share it. And even through medical school, that was kind of the case.
Now, I've always enjoyed reading for most of my life, I love sci-fi, I love fantasy novels, I love the escapism. And then right before medical school, I actually started writing a little bit, but always kind of like sci-fi short stories and stuff like that, not stuff that intersected with my personal experience. And it was really the end of residency, coming into my attending life where I started to be at a place where I saw a lot of intersections of my lived experience with other people's lived experience and really started blending my love for writing and storytelling into works of art or creations that would touch on things that were real to me. And so that's kind of the arc for me, from arts as a separate thing to arts as a blended thing. And then finally as arts as a way to express things real to me and to my soul that hopefully resonate with other people who read it.
Steven Jackson:
So that's an interesting kind of connection. Outside of music, you don't want to give me anything with a, I don't know, a paintbrush, construction paper. I was the kid that would cry when they handed out construction paper and glue. Give me some science and math, don't give me that art stuff. But interestingly enough, you appeared on the Twin Cities PBS's Art + Medicine: Speaking of Race and even won an award. Tell us a little bit about that experience and what you learned.
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, that was an incredible, incredible experience. So the TV show itself, the series, Art + Medicine, and there's been several shows, and Speaking of Race was the most recent show, but the series kind of came out of this show called Hippocrates Cafe that was started by Dr. Jon Hallberg. I'm not sure if you him, he's a family medicine practitioner who's long been into the blend of art and medicine. And then during the pandemic, so what he would do is he'd usually have musicians or artists come and perform live and they would be affiliated with the health care system. But during the pandemic, obviously, that wasn't really an option. And so this collaboration with TPT and Minnesota PBS was born to do something a little bit different. And it turned out it worked really well. They did a show, I think, something of Reflections on the Pandemic or about the pandemic as a theme. And then we just decided to do a series of those. And Speaking of Race is the third show in a series. We're working on a fourth one now, which is on disability.
And so the speaking of race show is let's gather voices from the community. Let's gather artists, artists in medicine. Let's try to share stories that are at the intersection of racial ethnic minorities, intersections into the health care system and artistic pursuits or artistic expressions. And it was just a really, really, really cool experience. Never really done anything like that. Seeing the production side of things, being in the show itself was just amazing, and then to have it win a regional Emmy was just so amazing.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Anthony Williams:
Yeah.
Kari Haley:
I mean, kudos. That's awesome.
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, it was just blew my mind. If you had told me 10 years ago, that's where I would be, I'd say you're crazy.
And when I think about the ways in which there's so many ways to think about community outreach, think about sharing DEI principles, DEI themes. I think a lot of people, including myself, have found it to be when you first step into this space, kind of overwhelming, frankly, because there's so many cool things are being done by amazing individuals and at so many levels. You can talk about the societal legislative level, you can talk about organizational institutional level, you can talk about the interpersonal level of implicit bias and things like that.
I think it is hard to figure out for an individual and where you can get in, where you fit in, essentially. And so, one of the things that I like to focus on or think about, or talk to folks about, especially if they're thinking about how do we get in, is ways in which the work that you do is going to be sustainable to yourself as an individual. So there's the sustainability of the work or the project that you start, but then there's the sustainability within yourself. And for it to be sustainable, it has to be something that feeds you and feeds your soul.
Steven Jackson:
It means something to you.
Anthony Williams:
And for each individual that might be different. And for me, it is narrative, it is storytelling, it is mentorship, and a lot of other things are important. But for me, things like advocacy or going to Capitol Hill, that's a huge lift for me that doesn't really feed me, so I just think about that, it's important, but I'm like, "Ooh," I just get tired when I think about it. And I'm glad that there are people out there fighting that good fight. But I think each individual should kind of go on that journey to know, because that's going to allow you to be sustained. Even if nothing ever got published and nobody ever saw it, I would still write, and I think that's kind of important to know about yourself.
Steven Jackson:
So getting in where you fit in, and sometimes, number one, there's so much work to be done, it's like where do you start? It's like going in my son's room, all right. If he hears this, he'll probably give me a dirty look about now. It's like, where do I start? And in the space of diversity, equity, and inclusion, I mean you did a brilliant job of really just defining the different levels and the different layers of it. It's just so much. Where to start? And you kind of talked about advocacy and mentorship. Is there something specific that stands out to you in regards to mentorship that really makes this work meaningful to you?
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, I think it does. I think it's an excellent question. And so I think when I was struggling or thinking closer to the beginning of this journey of when I grew up in Texas and Oklahoma, I think, and my parents rightfully so, trained me and my siblings to expect and accept a certain level of unfairness that's inherent in the system. And so I think there's a transition that's necessary from, I'm just going to be adaptable and kind of change how I do things to get what I need to do, I'm going to code switch, I'm going to do whatever it is I need to do to be successful, to now I have a certain amount of power, privilege, or I just understand the power of my own voice and now I'm going to transition to making things better.
Now at that transition point, there's this idea of in what capacity do I want to do that? Where do I want, how do I want to do this? And I think one of the keys for me was the understanding that what do I tend to gravitate towards even when no one is watching, even when no one is looking, what do I do? And mentorship turned out to be one of those things. So even in undergrad, when I was at the end of engineering school, I would still talk and chat with and give my perspective to the younger students coming in. When I was in medical school, late in medical school, would do the same for earlier medical school, working with MAPs, which was the undergrad organization or SNMA, the medical school version of that. And that just was a recurring theme or motif throughout training and throughout residency and throughout my attending life. So mentorship was where I started. And I think everything else I say about mentorship is a rationalization of a passion that I already have.
And so I can say, yeah, it's important to solve some of these diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. You have to have a diverse workforce or a diverse body who are bringing different perspectives and lenses. All the rationalization, or the fact that I love that process of being able to talk and help and give perspective to the folks that are coming behind us and want to fight other amazing battles.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah, including Capitol Hill?
Anthony Williams:
Including Capitol Hill. Yes.
Steven Jackson:
Someone has to, right?
Kari Haley:
Someone has to do it. Find that person and mentor them.
Anthony Williams:
That's right. That's who I'm looking for. I'm like, you want that? You go for it. Let me know how I can support you.
Kari Haley:
It's a segue, what do you say to people who are interested, but I think have a lot of fear associated with putting themselves out there, or feeling like they don't know enough or don't have enough knowledge to be able to become this person that people go to for DEI-type subjects or subject matter, what kind of words of advice do you have for those people?
Anthony Williams:
And that's a really good question, too. And I think it's tough because as we are coming into adulthood at various ages and stages, I think a lot of us, including myself, it's easy to get away from the lifelong learner mentality. So this idea that, how do I step into a space that I don't know much about and do something good without, A, making things worse or, B, overstepping my expertise. There's a lot of questions, and I think when we talk about DEI space that that's even harder because there's been a lot of historical stigma about that.
And so, for instance, if you are a person who isn't used to talking or conversing about DEI topics or racism or implicit bias, it can seem really scary that you're going to have a misstep, right? And so I think it's a combo approach. It's a multifactorial solution, in the sense that you have to have the desire, first off, you have to have this understanding that it's not... if you're stepping into a space that your goal is to do good, it's not really about you, it's kind of about the outcome that you want to achieve. And there's going to be independent learning, there's going to be open mindedness, there's going to be a certain amount of emotional bravery on your part to step out there and say, "OK, we're not way outside of our comfort zone. We're a little bit outside of our comfort zone." And a little bit outside of our comfort zone is where growth happens. And so it's a balance. It's a push and pull.
And also the idea that when we think about stepping into that space, don't think about stepping into it alone. Thinking about finding a community or a group who is doing some of the work that you're interested in, and then you come into that space trying to pitch in, how you would help. So I think there's this tendency, subconsciously, to think of this as an individual effort. What are you doing to fix racism bias, gender inequity? What are you doing? But it's a group, it's a communal, it's going to have to be a community solution. And so I think that takes a little bit of the anxiety and edge off, even though there is discomfort with being at the edge of your expertise or doing something new. So that's kind of how I think of it.
Kari Haley:
No, I think that I like that advice. I think that it is something scary, but if you are doing it together with other humans that are also like minded, it can make it be a little less scary.
Anthony Williams:
Yeah.
Kari Haley:
Share the fear.
Anthony Williams:
Share the fear, spread out that fear, spread out the anxiety. Because there will be fear and anxiety, that that's definitely true. And even for folks, I imagine, who are seasoned, like you guys are in these talks and in kind of the DEI sphere, there are still aspects of it that are terrifying.
Steven Jackson:
Absolutely.
Anthony Williams:
And so, for example, for me it's like we're working on this disability show through TPT, and I recognize that the waters are deep, and I am not savvy in that area. And so that is a challenge, that's a lot of sitting back listening, that's a lot of asking questions and being careful about how I phrase things. And it's a lot of just trying to absorb this new framework of thinking. And I feel uncomfortable, I feel self-conscious in these conversations, but I have to embrace that and step into that to learn, be better and grow.
Steven Jackson:
Well see, you just defined cultural humility, which is sitting back, asking questions, sort of approaching it in a sense of, "I don't know, but I want to know". And I think that's key to our growth, particularly in this space. We've talked about it in previous episodes, the difference between cultural competence or competencies and cultural humility. I feel in cultural competency, it has its place, but I feel like the danger of knowing so much is that you feel like you can generalize, and this group of people likes this, this group doesn't like that. And now you're an expert on nothing. You know what I'm saying?
Anthony Williams:
Yep.
Steven Jackson:
So you got to be careful about it. But I like that approach of asking questions and sitting back, and I think that's what we want with this show, that's what we want in this space for people, number one, to say, I don't know. And when you think about intent versus impact, if you stepped on my toe by mistake, you saying, "I didn't mean it," doesn't help the situation, but acknowledging that I've hurt you and, "I'm sorry, how can we work together so that I don't hurt you?" That's humility. And I think that's kind of what we need.
And make no mistake about it, there are a lot of layers, as you've pointed out, from legislative to individual. So individually, with Dr. Williams, how have you and how do you incorporate some of these principles into practice? Not only practice as in practicing it, but also in your medical practice, any experiences that stand out to you?
Anthony Williams:
I think that was very well said.
Steven Jackson:
Thank you.
Anthony Williams:
Thank summation of the principle, one of the principles that we're talking about. And so for me, I think of it in impacting or being... not even impacting, but being kind of threaded in indiscernible, essentially, from my medical practice day to day in a few different ways.
So one way is, there is a large populations, and there's been so many studies, there are large populations that we know don't fare as well in the health care system, both outside of the hospital leading in and also in the hospital, when we look at metrics, mortality, et cetera, et cetera, they do worse. And so how can all of us, but looking at myself, personally, when I do have certain resonances or overlaps with my patients and life experiences or life perspectives, how can I use that to inform or put a lens on this medical knowledge?
Because I think historically we've kind of viewed the acquisition of medical knowledge as this monolithic intellectual thing that exists, and it's not at all shaped by who we are and what our life experiences are. And I feel like it's just the inverse, that whatever I know is necessarily shaped by who I am and who I'm talking to.
Steven Jackson:
I love it. That's great.
Anthony Williams:
So leaning on this, leaning on this idea that we are, me and you, and when I sit down with a patient, we are trading narrative, we are trading stories. And if we connect on that level, then whatever I say medically with medical knowledge, recommendations, will have a greater chance of getting in, impacting and helping the patient make meaningful and lasting change. And so understanding that as a day-to-day way to engage with this, where I'm bringing my perspective.
And like you mentioned, one of you mentioned also that part of that is recognizing limitations because they're going to be patients that I just don't gel with, just because we have different life experiences, different perspectives or whatever it may be. And understanding that, A, I'm still going to do the best I can, but B, maybe a different person than me would be that would be better for this person. And so there are episodes of that too where I'm like, "OK, I recognize my limitations in this area. I recognize that I don't understand what you've been through at all. We're very different in where we're coming from", and being OK with that and with the idea that I am going to still do the best that I can for you. So there's multiple facets to that.
Kari Haley:
I like what you're saying, with the individual patient to patient interaction, but I know a lot of things too, thinking about what can we do as a community within health care, too? How do we make those connections within communities or outside of the walls, because as you said, so much of health happens outside of our hospital walls or our clinic walls, so what can we do, or what have you done and had success with for that community approach to medicine?
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, and I think that's a really good emphasis and point. And we have some of these discussions with a lot of my friends who are in primary care. They're like, "If we do what we do, then your job is less meaningful". And I'm like, "Yes, I agree. I agree a hundred percent". I think the primary care and all the stuff that happens, social determinants of health are way more important than the walls. If we do that better, then I would do less to do for our population. And so that community outreach, I think, is super important.
And like we talked about before, I think there's multiple aspects of community outreach. The things that speak to me are helping in any way that I can, highlight or push to the fore stories and artistic endeavors, expression from members of the community. There's so many ways to investigate or be involved in partnerships with the community. And I work with a lot of folks both at HealthPartners and at the university who are doing a lot of amazing things, mobile health clinics and volunteer at various free clinics and other places. There's so much to be involved in.
For me, I still come back to the narrative aspect of that, that there are so many people whose stories haven't been heard, and haven't been heard to date. And that would be useful, too, for other people to hear and for lots of people to hear where and how can I do that better, long term. Because I think that I can spit stats all day at people, but that is not really what changes minds and hearts. I think story is a unique vehicle, that once you can build that empathetic bridge that then people have a place to slot all of these complex DEI themes once that empathetic bridge is built. They know that story, they've heard that story, they're emotionally invested, and now we can start talking about what are we doing to try to make things better for this person who may represent a larger community or societal issue. And so for me, that's where I enjoy operating.
Steven Jackson:
And interestingly enough, stories are very powerful and stories are very effective because they highlight a very important fact in this work, that we're all human. And so again, I can quote disparity stats, talk about the inequities in health care and access, and even treatment, et cetera. But when you bring in a mom and her baby and you talk about infant mortality, or you bring in any, fill in the blank, now you are reminded, oh, yeah, this is not just a case, or this is not just a person on a list of patients that I have to see, but this is a person with a child, with a family, with hopes and dreams, stuff. And here I am offering solutions.
If we remember, write this down, everybody, if we remember that we're all fundamentally... we're human. We're human. And we have a lot of the same needs. That might be a good starting point. Of course we can't finish there, but we got to start there because when we talk about intent versus impact, when we talk about being who we need to be for those that we serve, now we're not just looking at our agenda, we're not just looking at our script, we're looking at what do you need, what's meaningful for you? And I think that's how we get to the solutions that we all want and the outcomes that we all want.
So if we had a camera and we were on a show, I want you to look into that virtual camera and give some really powerful, powerful, no pressure, kind of closing thoughts as to where do we go from here?
Anthony Williams:
So yeah, no pressure at all.
Steven Jackson:
No pressure at all.
Anthony Williams:
Yeah, just powerful, wise, sage, deep advice that fixes all the problems.
Steven Jackson:
That's right.
Anthony Williams:
That we've touched on today.
Steven Jackson:
I got my pen ready.
Anthony Williams:
So if I think in terms of takeaways, so, one, figuring out what are you interested in, what do you gravitate towards, what do you like even when no one is watching, and using that as a basis for at what level do you want to enter this DEI space in doing what. And so if you're a person who reads about new legislation that's passed and nobody knows this is a secret passion of yours, that may tell you, that maybe an indicator that that's the level at which you would have the power, the energy, the sustainability in that kind of environment.
Two, remember that you're not alone, particularly at HealthPartners in the Twin Cities, there are a lot of people doing a lot of amazing things. And so if you have an interest or a passion and you think that you're alone, then starting to reach out to some of the folks who may be more well-connected to say, "Hey, is there anybody else who may have an interest in this aspect?" You may be surprised, pleasantly so, by the results.
And so I think those would be the two big things, and I tend to focus on the folks who are on the cusp of wanting to get in more involved, but just don't know how, because there's a group that's already involved in going full-bore ahead and they don't need anything from me, keep doing the great work. And then there's a group of people who this may not be their thing and their lives are full, we're going in a different direction. And so really it's that mid-group that I would want to empower and figure out how to get them more involved.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah,
Kari Haley:
I think those were pretty darn good closing words.
Steven Jackson:
You did a good job, man. Hey, how much do we owe you?
Kari Haley:
What's your rate?
Anthony Williams:
Got to tell me your lifting regimen, I won't be able to follow it, but...
Steven Jackson:
That's free. I can give that for free.
Anthony Williams:
It's been awesome. Thank you for having me.
Steven Jackson:
And thank you so much for your time. Thank you on behalf of all the patients that you serve, and I'm sure are taken very good care of, and you had another partner who's holding up their end of the bargain man, serving and doing a great job at making things better in your space. So thanks for being on our show.
Kari Haley:
Thank you so much for your words and your stories, and it's good to know that you are helping train a future generation of med-ped doctors.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah, med-peds, look out for my application now.
Anthony Williams:
I will. We'll fast track it.
Steven Jackson:
Thanks so much.
Anthony Williams:
Hey, thank you.
Steven Jackson:
Off the Charts is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley:
It is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy, with Creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson:
Production services provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley:
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.