Jason Jackson helps leaders and teams at HealthPartners with critically important conversations as a diversity and inclusion consultant. On this episode, he shares his work and passion for equity and inclusion, the importance of not placating to whiteness, and finding a community of care while managing anxiety and depression.
Jason Jackson helps leaders and teams at HealthPartners with critically important conversations as a diversity and inclusion consultant. On this episode, he shares his work and passion for equity and inclusion, the importance of not placating to whiteness, and finding a community of care while managing anxiety and depression.
Hosts: Kari Haley, MD, and Steven Jackson, MD
Guest: Jason Jackson
HealthPartners website: Off the Charts podcast
Got an idea? Have thoughts to share? We want to hear from you. Email us at offthecharts@healthpartners.com.
Kari Haley:
He's a rehab doctor from Chicago.
Steven Jackson:
She's an emergency medicine doctor from the Twin Cities.
Kari Haley:
Together we're examining the health equity emergency.
Steven Jackson:
Inviting voices for changed without the cue cards.
Kari Haley:
I'm Dr. Kari Haley.
Steven Jackson:
I'm Dr. Steven Jackson.
Both, together:
And this is Off the Charts.
Steven Jackson:
Hello, everybody. Thank you guys for tuning in to Off the Charts: Examining the Health Equity Emergency. This is Dr. Jackson. I'm with Dr. Kari Haley, and you guys are in for a treat. We have Jason Jackson, who's a diversity and inclusion consultant and human resources for HealthPartners. Welcome, Jason. How are you?
Jason Jackson:
I am well. I am well. It is the end of winter in Minneapolis, Minnesota, or the Twin Cities.
Steven Jackson:
It better be.
Kari Haley:
I hope so.
Jason Jackson:
And I'm just trying to get through it you all. The exhaustion of the cold is real.
Kari Haley:
It really is. It's demoralizing a little bit, but you do diversity and inclusion. And we just are meeting here for the first time in person, but we have been in meetings together via Teams.
Steven Jackson:
Indeed.
Kari Haley:
Which is what our organization uses for the virtual world. Tell us more about you. What's your story? You said you're from the south and now you're here suffering in the cold.
Jason Jackson:
Yeah. Choices, my friends tell me, "Choices. You need choices, Jason." So no, I'm originally from Dallas, Texas.
Steven Jackson:
OK.
Jason Jackson:
And I moved to, me and my mom moved to Atlanta, Georgia, when I was about 9 years old, and that's where I grew up, went to high school. And then when I graduated high school, I made an attempt, my first attempt to go to college at Georgia State University. And I had some struggles. I wasn't at the time I would say ready. And then I decided to leave and made a decision to go and find myself. And so I moved to New York City because where you going to find yourself, if not New York City? So I moved to New York and I had probably one of the best experiences, I would say, educational experiences around learning about who I was and what I needed. I think New York City taught me or teaches many people to sink or swim. Right.
Either you'll use your voice in this city that is so loud, that is so intense, or you'll kind of fade to the background. So I learned a lot about what power I think I had or have in New York City. I made some of my best friends in New York City who I'm really, really close with to this day. But then I think I hit around the age of 25 and I was taking, I need to get my life together because I'm running around New York City having fun on paper. What's happening. And so my parents moved to the Twin Cities in the interim of me running around New York City. They moved to Minneapolis. And I didn't know where Minneapolis was on the map. I didn't know where it was. I knew Prince and the characters, Brandon and Brenda from 90210 were from there. But I didn't know where it was on the map and so,
Steven Jackson:
They sure were. Weren't they?
Jason Jackson:
They moved to from Minneapolis to LA. And so I would come and visit here and I didn't necessarily like it, it was really cold. It was an environment that wasn't diverse, quote, unquote I would say, for me. And so I'm living in New York City, but when I decided to go back to school, I knew I didn't want to do it in New York City. But where could I do it? Where could I thrive? And I can just imagine myself in a city that was cold and snowy, sitting in a little apartment, typing my heart out. So I came to Minneapolis and the goal was to come here, just to go to school and then find another way out and leave. But I fell in love with many people in this community. I fell in love with, because I took a course at Minneapolis Community College and it was a women's studies course, and I remember them talking a lot about the intersections of race and class and gender.
And for the very first time I started to hear language that connected to things that I was experiencing as someone who was Black and queer or gay. And I was hearing this language and understood at that time at the community college that I can use language to fight and language to find community. And there was something really empowering about that. And so when I started taking these courses, I fell in love with the work and I started asking questions about my community in the Twin Cities, where are Black queer people at? And the more I complained about it and the more I connected with people, I started to find people who were Black and queer like me in the Twin Cities who are doing this thing called organizing, which I didn't know much about organizing. And organizing for them was literally just finding a community of LGBTQ people and creating, call it safer spaces or brave spaces where we can exist in a community where you don't often see us.
And so I joined the ranks of Twin Cities Black Pride, organized with them, created programming and events, continued on with school, and then went to transfer from Minneapolis Community College to the University of Minnesota where I studied communications. And then got to the university, met more amazing people, graduated. And then next thing you know, I get a job right out of school working in the school district of St. Paul. I meet a guy who just turns my head and next thing you know it's really hard to move away from the Twin Cities. And that's 15 years ago. And so I've stayed. So that's what's brought me to this moment here.
Steven Jackson:
And you sound like a person that likes to make an impact. You don't strike me as somebody who can stay quiet for long, especially if there's work to be done or people to impact or landscapes to change and alter. And so this being a health equity podcast, what is kind of your professional and your personal connection to health and things like health equity?
Jason Jackson:
Yeah. Absolutely. I think I'll go ahead and just name it. I think my personal connection to health and health equity can be pretty vast. I think growing up Black and gay, this was in the '90s and I remember seeing a lot of visuals on TV about death and HIV-AIDS and this kind of targeted focus on queer people. Right. And so I remember thinking, when I grow up, I'm going to be impacted by this or am I, and the messages were so confusing and the questions in my mind was like, why was HIV and AIDS a targeted focus for queer people? Right. And so I think in the back of my mind, there may have been some distrust or some anxieties about connecting with health care professionals, even at a time where I was in high school in the late '90s. I didn't understand what that meant, but I definitely felt it.
As I got older, and a personal note, I started to experiencing these overwhelming feelings and I didn't know what they were, where my heart would race, I would panic in class, I would feel kind of off balance, and I didn't know what that meant. And I would sometimes sleep in or sleep late, and my mother would come downstairs and kick me and go to school and push me, and I would have to push through it anyway. But I always had this really anxious feeling. I know what it was. And then my mother finally took me to a place where to go and see a health care or a mental health care counselor at the time. And I was talking to this guy, it was this white guy sitting in this room with me and I was explaining what I was feeling. And he looked at me and he smiled and he said, I think I'm looking at somebody who was experiencing a lot of anxiety, right, and potentially depression. And there was something really strange about that moment because I'm like, I never heard anybody actually articulate or name anxiety and depression for me.
Steven Jackson:
Right.
Jason Jackson:
I just thought that I was on my, I didn't know what I was going through. But he smiled when he did it and when he smiled, it made a world of difference because what it made me think in that moment was, he has probably seen this before and there's maybe help for someone like me. Right. And so I have been battling with depression and anxiety for the, that I am aware of probably since I was a teenager like 15 or 16 years old. I'm 40, I'll be 41 tomorrow, which is strange.
Steven Jackson:
Happy birthday. Oh, goodness.
Kari Haley:
Happy early birthday.
Jason Jackson:
But for well over 20 years in battling it. And I would say to you, particularly now, making the connection to health equity and health care and mental health over the last couple years, working more so remotely, navigating the pandemic, thinking also a lot about calling it really what it is, racial trauma. And it didn't start for me with George Floyd, but it definitely escalated when George Floyd was killed. Holding so many things over these last few years, I would say has heightened a lot of anxiety and depression. And there was a point in the last year or two that I had to be really vulnerable and be open and say, I actually need a care team around me. I need a therapist, I need a psychiatrist, I need a coach, I need my friends. And you're right, I'm the kind of person that walk into a room. I'm "Action Jackson." I get things done, I'm focused.
Steven Jackson:
Hey, that's my name.
Jason Jackson:
"Action Jackson." I'm telling you, maybe it's our last name the makes us action oriented.
Steven Jackson:
Maybe so.
Jason Jackson:
But I'm an action-oriented person.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Jason Jackson:
I'm going to take care of people around me. But in that moment, I kind of got to take care of myself.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Jason Jackson:
Right.
Steven Jackson:
It's a good point.
Jason Jackson:
And particularly with my mental health, my pride may have gotten in the way and I wasn't focusing on what it was that I needed in the moment. And so that took some vulnerability to do. So I've been really kind of sitting with that around health and health care and health equity, particularly for Black and brown people who I connect with who oftentimes struggle in silence.
Kari Haley:
I think that, and we kind of have chatted before about it, you bring so much passion and energy virtually. So I mean, it's hard to do that anyway, but even virtually is that extra step and the fact that you have a lot of other things going on in your life and you have these other anxiety, depression that you're dealing with. And now that you work closely with this health care organization, do you have a new lens now that you're kind of looking at the conversations that you are participating in now, being more a person like thinking about their own involvement in the health care system that you are advising?
Jason Jackson:
Ooh. Could you,
Kari Haley:
That's a hard one.
Jason Jackson:
It's a hard one.
Kari Haley:
Usually Steve does the hard ones.
Steven Jackson:
I know.
Kari Haley:
Guess it was my turn today.
Steven Jackson:
I'm wild.
Jason Jackson:
I don't think I, to be honest with you, I don't think I have thought too much differently about it now that I work inside of a health care system about mental health. Because in my experience in working with so many amazing people who do health equity work from a myriad of standpoints, I see so many people asking really critical questions about how do we engage marginalized communities in a really better way? I see so many people who seemingly sort of really aware of health care disparities. So not sure I would say I think about it differently, working inside of a health care system about my experiences and connections to mental health. Does that make sense?
Kari Haley:
Yeah. No, I think it does.
Steven Jackson:
That makes sense. That makes sense. So we think about, and I'll use the word landscape, this uprising of marginalized people and forcing the conversation to happen, that should have happened a long time ago about where, where we need to all be,
Jason Jackson:
Right.
Steven Jackson:
Not just a few. And then you throw in this pandemic, and now that's resulted in either a rise in or maybe an awareness of the fact that things like mental health services are much more needed. I mean, you talk about booking out, I thought I booked out. We're talking like a year, a year wait list to be seen by a mental health provider. And what I'm alluding to is the fact that there seems to be this unstated pressure, this pressurized undertone, I think when I think about doing the actual work. And from my own experience, sometimes you're caught between, you're not doing enough to, why are we still talking about this, especially in the workplace. And there's pressure there to perform. Sometimes you want to be perfect. And do you ever feel that pressure? And what is your personal approach to the D&I work that we're talking about?
Jason Jackson:
Yeah. So in my role, I would say a bulk of my role is to help do a lot of creating programming and creating like, for example, we have colleague resource group or some organizations call them ERGs or employee resource groups and help deliver and do trainings. And I definitely do a lot. The bulk of my work really is about, I would say, calling and coaching and consulting leaders to infuse diversity, equity, and inclusion to their work and to help one of our goals and strategies around building high performing teams in the organization. I love that work. It's my favorite. And you're right, I do have, there's this heavy space between Jason Jackson, we need to be pushing harder and talking about white supremacy culture and the ways in which our colleagues are displaying it. And then on the other hand, I have someone saying to me, if we use the word racism, don't you think that's a little too heavy?
Steven Jackson:
It's a little harsh.
Jason Jackson:
Right.
Kari Haley:
Yes, hard.
Jason Jackson:
And so it can feel pretty intense, right, trying to, I would, for lack of a better word, straddling both of those different spaces. And depending on where my mind is at or where my heart is at, sometimes it can feel heavy. But I have to remind myself that when people are coming to me or I'm working with a colleague in the organization and they're needing some support around infusing DEI into their work and their practice, it's not about me anymore. It's about them.
Steven Jackson:
That's good.
Jason Jackson:
Right. What are they holding onto? So here's an example. I'll have a colleague come to me and say, Hey Jason, you come in and do an LGBTQ training for my team. And then my first response is, why can't you do it? Right. And what I'm asking in those moments are, what are your experiences with D&I? What are you really saying to me underneath what you're asking me?
Kari Haley:
Right.
Jason Jackson:
And those are the kind of conversations that I really, really do love to have. Right. When people come to me and they may make a statement about, they may have taken issue with our stands around social justice or racial justice in our organization. My question is, what is harming you? What has been your experience with racial justice? Right. I like to get underneath what people are often saying. That helps me stay engaged in the work.
Kari Haley:
It reminds me a little bit of some feedback and stuff that I've heard in the past and or had conversations about the concept of tokenism and how that line between wanting to educate people and help people on their journey, but also not wanting to fall into that bracket of tokenism.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Kari Haley:
How do you straddle that? How do you weave that line? Or how do you deal with your own internal thoughts about those feelings?
Jason Jackson:
Well, number one, I think it's so important, particularly doing DEI work really any work, but D&I work in particular and being a person of color, you got to be really, really careful and keep people around you who keep you honest, right, who you can check in with about these things, too. Because it's really easy, I think an organization like ours here in HealthPartners, which I serve a lot of people and support a lot of people that's predominantly white, it could be really, really easy to fall into a, in a kind of tokenizing world where I'm placating to a level of whiteness opposed to just telling the truth and being honest and upfront. Number two, I think when people come to me and they start asking me questions about me opposed to themselves, that's usually where I'm noticing sometimes where tokenism is happening. If you just told me more about you, can focus on you and your stuff. But really what they're trying to do is avoid them working on their projects,
Steven Jackson:
Yep.
Jason Jackson:
Addressing their own levels of bias or racism. Right. So often we'll flip the question back on people and take it away from me. Because like I said before, it's not about me. Right. My job is to facilitate a dialogue, facilitate a level of awareness and understanding. Right. So how do I navigate tokenism? By doing my best every single day to be aware when it's showing up. I think for me as a person of color, being Black, particularly in this country, being really, really cautious and careful about me living within my own grounding and understanding of integrity of who I am, right, and trusting that.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. We had a recent conversation, and I don't want to really quote it because they'll have to hear it on the other episode, but one of the concepts that we covered was, in order to contribute to your surroundings, you have to be connected. And to be connected, you have to feel comfortable with who you are. And not only feel comfortable with who you are, but feel comfortable being who you are around others.
Jason Jackson:
Right.
Steven Jackson:
We talk about code-switching, we talk about changing who we are, depending on who we're around, whether it's to make others around us comfortable or to make us comfortable in the situation. We put on different hats, we wear different clothes, different capes, whatever, plug in the analogy. What do we do about that in terms of whether you talk about organizationally or even just within our society, how can we get to the point where normal has been redefined so that, going back to something I said previously, if I don't wear a suit and tie I'm not looked at differently, or if I have my locks as opposed to a nice clean cut fade, I'm not looked at differently or my chances of getting the job aren't a little lower because of the, how do we fix that? Let me get my pen so you can fix the word real quick.
Kari Haley:
Here's the hard question there.
Steven Jackson:
How do we fix that,
Kari Haley:
He's coming up with,
Steven Jackson:
Jason Jackson?
Kari Haley:
The hard question now.
Jason Jackson:
Well, I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever fix it. I know that what's happening, and I really appreciate your podcast and the work that people do, and that we see it happen around naming different topics around social justice, around class and racism. And I think that that is really, really important work. So let me just back up and think about it this way. Number one, the whole piece about code-switching, and I'm going to speak particularly for anybody who experiences life on the margins. So women, people of color, folks who experience or are disabled. Sometimes code-switching is about just survival and getting through your day.
Steven Jackson:
Yep.
Kari Haley:
Yeah.
Steven Jackson:
Yep.
Jason Jackson:
Right.
Steven Jackson:
Yep.
Jason Jackson:
And that is real. As long as you are aware of what you're doing and why you're doing it, and you can reconcile that in your heart every day,
Steven Jackson:
That's a good point.
Jason Jackson:
Right, then you keep moving. And then how do we get to this promised land of one day where I can relax my shoulders and come in with dreadlocks or what I wear and do not wear? I think that we are all chipping away at it the more we have conversations about race and class and gender. I mean, is this recently where there was a new law or policy in place where one cannot no longer be discriminated against because of natural hair?
Steven Jackson:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Jackson:
I mean, tell somebody that in 1985 that that will happen one day and they wouldn't believe you, right?
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Jason Jackson:
We're chipping away at it, right, through conversations, I think.
Steven Jackson:
Let me write it down. Hold on. Hold on.
Jason Jackson:
We're doing it.
Kari Haley:
It's getting there, right?
Jason Jackson:
I think.
Kari Haley:
It's slow. It's maybe slower than some people want. You've kind of alluded to, you have to kind of balance that we're not,
Steven Jackson:
Too fast for some.
Kari Haley:
Doing enough or going too fast.
Steven Jackson:
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Kari Haley:
Put the brakes on.
Steven Jackson:
Don't say racism.
Kari Haley:
That's a hard word to hear about. But I think one of the big things that I've appreciated with the work that I know that you're doing within our organization is really just like you're somebody who's really able, I think, to articulate it well. And I think you articulate it really well for a wide audience. And I think that people don't feel threatened necessarily in those same ways that they might feel if it was said in a different way. But you're still saying the same thing, is just like the way you're able to articulate it, I think people receive it very well. And so I would like all of you to hear kind of what are your tips for people when we're talking about being anti-racist, how do you approach the subject to people who might not be very comfortable with it? And how do we start those conversations or continue those conversations?
Jason Jackson:
Yeah. Well, I have to go back a little bit because I think I still struggle sometimes with the piece about being accessible and palpable. Right. And I've often wondered what that means in terms of how I show up with my work. I don't ever try to do anything in particular where I'm nice or open. I just try to practice being open, right, or and being direct as I possibly can. And sometimes I'm sure there are people who don't think I'm necessarily nice or palpable, and I'm fine with that as well.
When I'm working with particularly leaders in the organization who are wanting to, like I said, infuse diversity, equity, and inclusion into their teams, I think the kind of conversations I love, and I think I mentioned this earlier, is I love asking questions about who you are. Right. And I'll say to people, I'm like, tell me an experience you had growing up about race. Right. And tell me a story you have in terms of maybe gender or sexuality or any list of different things. And what I'm often trying to get out of people is their why. I'm sure you probably know about Simon Sinek, who is an educator who talks about the power of knowing your why.
Steven Jackson:
Yep.
Jason Jackson:
Because I think your why for doing fill in the blank, it does actually make doing the work of the what and in this case, doing DEI work much more, I don't want to say easier, but you can navigate the waters better. When I get frustrated doing diversity and equity inclusion work, and do, I have to go back to stories and things that connect me to this work. The way I see it, and I think I've shared a little bit about this as well, being Black, being queer, struggling with mental health, I find myself caring about this work of diversity, equity, anti-racism, social justice, because I'm still working to support and help the little boy that I needed when I was growing up. That's my why. Right. And so when I'm having conversations about diversity, equity, inclusion, and social justice, often, I'm not even calling it that. I'm really wanting to know who you are, where you're starting from, right, and kind of delving into those conversations and connecting it in that way.
Kari Haley:
I love it. Makes sense.
Steven Jackson:
And when you start from that reference point, or when you frame it like that, it really makes it easier to realize that we're all connected. It's not a Black or white thing. It's not a, I mean, plug in a demographic or the description, whatever it is. It's about people. It's about people. When we come to this table to do this podcast, who knows what lived experience we've had that week or since the last time we've seen one another. And I think having this conversation, I mean, yeah, we're putting out content, but this is personally therapeutic like for me, being able to talk about what I need to talk about. This is my counseling session.
I mean, I'm just so appreciative of the fact that we have people like you and others that are out there in spite of some of the difficulties and the challenges that are inherent with this type of work. You said something that's going to stick with me. It's not about me in those moments. And that's so meaningful because that's how things get better. When people for a second forget about themselves and remember about the people around them. You gave us an answer. See.
Kari Haley:
Yes.
Jason Jackson:
It takes a moment. Right. And I was on a panel discussion the other day. They were talking about beyond the Black and white binary, talking about racism in America. It got really deep. And I was having a conversation about a time when I had brought together people of color into a group when I used to work at the University of Minnesota and I brought LGBTQ people who were people of color into a room. And for the very first time it started to happen, this idea of people were saying, oh, I'm Black. I'm navigating a legacy of enslavement and racism. And then you may have somebody who is Latina who is saying to you, well, my parents coming from a place of not being documented and they can be taken away at any moment. And then another person is talking about different level of immigration or just whatever. And next thing you know, I'm like, we're starting to kind of fight each other, right, with,
Steven Jackson:
Like whose problem is biggest kind of thing?
Jason Jackson:
Yeah.
Steven Jackson:
OK.
Jason Jackson:
Some people may call it oppression Olympics, which,
Kari Haley:
That's a great term.
Jason Jackson:
Ridiculous, right? Ridiculous, but literally the question is, is what are people actually trying to say to you? Right. What's underneath those words? I have been called out and pushed back on and so many different things in this work of doing diversity and inclusion and reminding that it's not often just about me. What it is about, what is the person trying to say? So in that conversation around different people of color going back and forth, it was less about them debating. What they were really saying was, do you see me as a Black person? Do you see me as a Hmong person? Do you see me as a Latina in this space with you? Right. Because the human need, and I think what you said, which I really appreciate, we all are connected, we all are human, right, and we all, I think have a basic need and desire to be heard and to be seen.
Steven Jackson:
And to belong.
Jason Jackson:
And to belong.
Kari Haley:
And to belong.
Jason Jackson:
Right.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Jason Jackson:
And at the same time, we are coming from very different experiences, which I still want you to see me as Black. I still want you to see me as gay. I still want you to understand that my experience is different. I don't want you to qualify them,
Steven Jackson:
Right. Right.
Jason Jackson:
To you. I don't want you to say that you're better than me or I'm less than of you. Right. I still want you to see me. But at the core of it, I am a human and I have knees of feeling connected and belonging.
Steven Jackson:
Beautiful.
Jason Jackson:
Got a little hippie, hipster there.
Kari Haley:
No.
Steven Jackson:
Beautiful. That was good.
Kari Haley:
That was a beautiful way.
Steven Jackson:
That was.
Kari Haley:
I think probably we should just mic drop that ending now. So as we have, I feel like on a lot of our conversations we've been having. But really honestly just thank you for being here today. Thank you for all of the work you do within our organization. We are so lucky to have you, to be part of our team and to have you here today.
Jason Jackson:
I appreciate you.
Steven Jackson:
Heartfelt thank you, man.
Kari Haley:
Yes.
Steven Jackson:
Another guest we just have to bring back.
Kari Haley:
Yep.
Steven Jackson:
So get ready. We'll be calling you.
Jason Jackson:
Call me, I'm here.
Steven Jackson:
Yeah.
Jason Jackson:
I'm not leaving Minnesota anytime soon, I think.
Kari Haley:
Don't quote the storm of May.
Steven Jackson:
Right. Don't make any promises while it's snowing. But no, seriously, thank you so much for your time and thank you for the work that you do.
Jason Jackson:
I appreciate you. Thank you.
Steven Jackson:
Off the Charts is a production of HealthPartners and Park Nicollet.
Kari Haley:
It is recorded by Jimmy Bellamy, with creative by Peggy Arnson, Tina Long, Tim Myers and Jeff Jondahl.
Steven Jackson:
Production services provided by Matriarch Digital Media.
Kari Haley:
Our theme music is by Ryan Ike.